Confronting the “H-Bomb”: The Truth About Managing a Popular Brand

WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:06.679 Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Higher Ed Marketer. You've 2 00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:10.320 probably not heard my voice before, so please let me introduce myself. I'm 3 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:14.839 ROB cottlet executive producer of this show. It's been my pleasure to work with 4 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:19.039 Bart and troy over the past year to create this show to help the Higher 5 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:24.199 Ed Marketing Space Grow and improve in these challenging times. Before we dive into 6 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:28.760 today's episode with very special guests Brian Kenny of the Harvard Business School, I'd 7 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.719 like to take a moment to acknowledge the absolute truck load of hard work and 8 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:37.759 dedication from Bart and troy that makes this podcast work. Their willingness to show 9 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:43.280 up week after week with amazing guests has led this show to be named number 10 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:48.119 four on terminal fours, two thousand and twenty one list of the top ten 11 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:53.759 podcasts for Higher Ed Marketing and recruitment teams. I'm incredibly proud of both of 12 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:58.479 them and this show for shedding new light on the cutting edge of marketing for 13 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:03.359 higher ed institutions and I certainly hope that you'll enjoy this episode, not only 14 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.920 for our renowned guest, but with also some of the new additional touches that 15 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:11.920 just make it shine a little bit more. So please sit back and enjoy 16 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:19.840 this deeply insightful conversation today and help us celebrate fifty fabulous episodes of the Higher 17 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:25.640 Ed Marketer. You're listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards 18 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:30.799 marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related 19 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.920 to student recruitment, don't know, relations, marketing trends, new technologies and 20 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.319 so much more. If you are looking for conversation centered around where the industry 21 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:47.079 is going, this podcast is for you. Let's get into the show. 22 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:52.079 Welcome to the High Reed Marketer podcast. I'm troy singer and I'm here with 23 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:57.640 my cohost and most sincerely one of the best business partners I could ever have, 24 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:02.000 Bart Taylor, and today we are bringing you our fifty episode of a 25 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:07.200 hired Marketer podcast. How does it feel to be fifty, Bart? It's 26 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.759 pretty incredible. It's for the second time for me, or as years I 27 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:15.840 should say, but yeah, I'm so proud of the work that has gone 28 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:17.960 in over the last year and it's been an honor to share that road with 29 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:23.479 your troy. Thank you, and today our guest is Brian Kenny, who 30 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:30.280 is the CMO of the Harvard Business School, and our conversation with him today 31 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:36.159 is really what is the truth about managing a very strong, popular brand. 32 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.759 And Bart, the reason why we felt it would be good to have this 33 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:44.960 conversation is so often you and I are encountering people that's saying if I managed 34 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:50.280 a brand like Harvard, it would be an easy marketing job. So you, 35 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.520 to your credit, reached out and was able to get the CMO of 36 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:58.560 Harvard as a guest so we could talk to him about that and then get 37 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:05.000 some other thoughts that at our very interesting. About the CMO roll. Yeah, 38 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:07.280 I thought it was a it was a great opportunity and I was really 39 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.000 thrilled that Brian, you know, reach back out so quickly and said, 40 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:15.080 wow, you've got a great podcast and I really impressive list of folks you've 41 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:21.520 talked to. So thank you all the previous folks that we've had as guests. 42 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.039 But really the question came down to is do the elite of the elite 43 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.199 really need to be able to market? And I think that you'll find this 44 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:31.800 conversation really a good one. I think Brian kind of kind of lets you 45 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:37.000 in on some of the things that that he's challenged as as chief marketing officer 46 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:39.159 of the Harvard Business School, and he'll go into some of the details that 47 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:44.719 are unique to Harvard. But in essence really is pay attention, because a 48 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:49.360 lot of this is not unique to Harvard. It's unique to higher education marketing, 49 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.960 and so I think he really gives you some great feedback and great tips 50 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.199 that you can apply to your own school. Yes, the first half is 51 00:03:55.199 --> 00:04:00.840 really about that and Harvard business school overall, and it's podcast, but then 52 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:06.319 the second part is about the h bomb and without further ADO, here is 53 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:14.240 Brian Kenny. We are proud to welcome Brian Kenney, chief marketing and communications 54 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:18.040 officer for the Harvard Business School, to the Higher Ed market a podcast. 55 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:23.360 Brian, thank you so much for joining us. If we could ask you 56 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:27.639 first tell us a little bit about yourself and then also your role at the 57 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.439 Harvard Business School. Sure Right. Well, first time, thrill to be 58 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.360 here, great to be a guest on your show. I'M A chief marketing 59 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:36.800 and communications officer at Harvard Business School. I have the distinction, I guess, 60 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:41.399 of being the first to hold that title, which is a mixed blessing, 61 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.800 which will probably talk about at some point. But I've been in this 62 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:48.040 role for coming up on fourteen years, which anybody knows that. You know, 63 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:54.079 in a marketers life, fourteen years is like five eternity's really long time 64 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.360 to be in the same role and I think a little bit it speaks to 65 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:01.279 the nature of the exciting and dynamic natuure of Harvard Business School. I've been 66 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:05.600 in and out of higher education throughout my career. I've worked at three major 67 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:11.959 universities in Boston plus a small college, always in a marketing communications role, 68 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.040 but I also stepped out for, you know, a decade or so and 69 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:19.680 worked in the private sector in both professional services and high tech. So I've 70 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.560 had, you know, a little bit of experience and other worlds that I 71 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.560 brought back to higher ed when I when I return to this sector, and 72 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.680 I think it helped me to see things maybe from a different perspective than somebody 73 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.199 who's always been in higher education. And these days, you know, I 74 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:38.839 have lots of conversations with people who have always been in the private sector and 75 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:43.120 they're thinking about their next career and they they really want to explore higher ed 76 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.199 as an opportunity so I think it's a great thing for anybody to explore. 77 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:50.319 I also think it's the most challenging marketing role that that you can have, 78 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:55.399 and I'm happy to go deeper on that and explain why I why I believe 79 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:58.399 that to be true. Harvard Business School, for those of you, for 80 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.879 those of your listeners who are you, they know the name, but if 81 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.959 they're not familiar with the enterprise, we are about a billion dollar enterprise, 82 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:08.399 a hundred and fifty million roughly to a billion, and we're known for the 83 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:13.360 NBA program which is where we started, first school ever to to grant the 84 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:17.399 master's in Business Administration. But we also have an executive education program that that 85 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:21.639 you know, teaches about twelvezero executives who come through a year. We have 86 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:26.920 an online program we're reaching tens of thousands people a year and we have a 87 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:32.279 publishing enterprise that does hawevard business review as well as business books and and a 88 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:36.480 whole host of other kinds of publications, as well as corporate training product. 89 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:44.079 So it's a pretty diverse institution, all focused on management education in one realm 90 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.959 or another. That's great. Thank you, Brian, for given us that 91 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:53.240 introduction and certainly that's a that's a large portfolio for a for a chief marketing 92 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:57.639 and communications officer to manage. How does that I mean certainly part of it 93 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.959 is is what I would consider traditional higher education, but then there's aspects of 94 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.399 it are, you know, the publishing arm and other things like that. 95 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:08.560 How are you kind of relating all that together? And maybe that goes back 96 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.639 to your initial comment about, you know, it's one of the hardest marketing 97 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:15.360 rules that you can do. Yeah, it does a little bit. I 98 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.279 think that's true no matter what institution you're in. I think education is, 99 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.959 you know, the the the various audiences that you have to think about as 100 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:27.120 a as a marketing person in education is quite different than if you're selling a 101 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.399 particular product or service. It's easier to ident to fi that target market that 102 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:34.639 you've got in those other endeavors. In education you've got to think about students 103 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.600 and alumni and, you know, town gown issues and the general public and, 104 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:42.720 you know, so the the academy, all these other audiences that you've 105 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:46.800 got to think about. So you're constantly shapeshifting from one meeting to the next 106 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.480 where you might be talking about a social media strategy and the first meeting that's 107 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:54.879 targeted to prospective students and then you're having a meeting about how are you going 108 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:58.720 to deal with this building construction project that you've got going in the heart of 109 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:01.759 the city and you've got, you know, neighbors around you that are riled 110 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.560 up about it. So I think it's challenging because of the it's constantly calling 111 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.319 on you to adapt and to address different kinds of situations. You know, 112 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.920 if I think about my role at Harvard Business School, that business experience that 113 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.800 I had really became very helpful to me here. When I was in professional 114 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.519 services, I was working for management consulting firms and I got a really deep 115 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.439 dive on the kinds of issues that sea level executives have to think about on 116 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:30.680 a daytoday basis, and that experience when I when I came to Harvard Business 117 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.799 School. It felt like the combination of the educational experience that I had plus 118 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:39.000 the business background, you know, really came full circle and dovetailed nicely at 119 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:43.559 a place like HBS, which is a little bit like a business and a 120 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.440 little bit like an educational institution. You know, we're bringing both of those 121 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.440 worlds together and one of the things that HBS is known for is that the 122 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:56.960 business case studies that we write are based on actual business issues that leaders challenges 123 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.600 that leaders have had, and so all you know, the way that our 124 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:05.039 faculty think, the way that the leadership team runs the school is very much 125 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.519 like you would see in a corporate setting, where we're thinking a lot about 126 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:13.840 the business strategy of the of the school. Great, Great Brian. Another 127 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.039 aspect of the business schools that you have your own podcast, and if you 128 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.679 could tell us about cold call and what it's mission is and maybe how the 129 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:28.279 university utilizes that podcast and its marketing efforts? Yeah, I would love to 130 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.440 talk about my podcast. Thank you the opportunity now. I yeah, so 131 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.639 I love podcasts. I listen to them. I've listened to them for a 132 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.679 long time and, you know, I saw when podcasting became a little bit 133 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:45.960 more accessible because bandwidth became better and you could actually listen to podcast when you 134 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.960 are on the go. That, to me marked an opportunity for us to 135 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.720 think about a different way of getting the word out about the work at Harvard 136 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.639 Business School. My job, the job that I described from my team that 137 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.960 we do every days to tell stories that animate the mission of the school and 138 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.799 the work of the school, and part of that is bringing the voices of 139 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.159 the people who are doing the work to the surface. And when I say 140 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.759 voices I can mean that literally or I can mean it in writing and other 141 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:16.559 ways, but podcasts are really a great way to humanize somebody and for a 142 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.000 long time there was a mystique about Harvard business school and that worked for probably 143 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:24.519 the first eighty or ninety years of our existence. But we live in a 144 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.200 time where people want transparency, they want access. Social Media has made that 145 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:33.759 available and I think it's really helped us to help people see that the things 146 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:39.919 that that faculty and students that HBS do are very impressive and very ambitious and 147 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:43.759 they are changing the world in many ways. But at the same time these 148 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.240 are just people and when you hear them talk about the the business cases they 149 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.200 write and the work that they do, it really brings it right down to 150 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.879 earth and humanizes them and knocks away a lot of the mystique that maybe creates 151 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.039 a barrier between us and the public. And one of the thing I would 152 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:03.320 say about cold call. Every episode features me talking to a faculty member about 153 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.519 a business case they've written. We teach by the case method and many other 154 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.360 business schools have adopted the case method as a way of teaching. Every case 155 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.600 is a story and every story is something that anybody who's in any aspect of 156 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.639 business should be able to listen to and pull a lesson away from. So 157 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.679 we think it's a great way to show the relevance of case method research. 158 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.159 That's great and I guess I would do a follow up question that. On 159 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.440 that, Brian, is the fact that, you know, you talk about 160 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:35.320 authenticity and being able to show that real aspect of the faculty and of HBS 161 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:41.159 and other aspects of the institution. Would you say that that's even more important? 162 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:43.919 Mean, certainly podcast like to do that, but isn't that more important 163 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:48.440 for the generations that we're dealing with, like millennials and Z's? And you 164 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.480 know I'm an exer. I think that, you know, it's that mystique 165 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.080 still kind of plays in a little bit with with with our generation, I 166 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:00.759 think, but I think as you get further younger generations, that mystique starts 167 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:03.120 to kind of rub them a little bit the wrong way and they do want 168 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.679 that awesome to authenticity. It's it was that what you're finding. Yeah, 169 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:11.440 I think that's definitely true and you know, I feel like everybody's got their 170 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.200 mobile device in their hand all the time. We've got a generation now coming 171 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:16.879 up. Who Are you? They're looking at tick tock, they're looking at 172 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:22.919 short form video. You know, they they don't necessarily want to have to. 173 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.399 I think there's a couple of dynamics. One is they want the information 174 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:28.559 to be there when they want it, when they need it, when they're 175 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.320 ready to consume it. PODCASTS are on demand, so you know you can 176 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.840 you can download that anytime you want. They're very convenient in terms of being 177 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.960 able to listen to them while you're doing something else, and I think it's 178 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.240 a medium that allows the listener to go deeper than they would if they were 179 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:46.679 just scrolling through their feed. You know, they're going to look maybe a 180 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.639 two minute video, but they're willing to invest in a twenty or thirty minute 181 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.960 podcast if the content is good and relevant and if they're in a place where 182 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.320 they're going to be there for twenty or thirty minutes. So for a lot 183 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:01.440 of us that's the car during our commute or that's the gym when you're when 184 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.000 you're on the treadmill, podcasts have made it really easy for people to again 185 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:11.320 enjoy long form content, whereas I wouldn't expect a lot of people in my 186 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:15.679 children's generation there and their s to read a Harvard Business Review Article. I 187 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.720 just I just wouldn't, and that's a reality that I think we're all reckoning 188 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.559 with. And HBR has known this for a while. They've scaled back from 189 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:28.000 monthly issues to buy monthly. So they do six printed issues a year and 190 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:31.720 even within those issues they have Experi mented with shorter articles and, you know, 191 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.200 case briefs and things like that as a way to address this. And 192 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:41.080 they also do podcasts, obviously you know so. So I think podcasts are 193 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:46.320 solving a number of different challenges that we encounter. What we're trying to take 194 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.440 complex ideas and make them relatable. That's great. That's great and it kind 195 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.720 of is another, you know, kind of going into another direction here when 196 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:56.240 we talk about, and you know, the authenticity and that mystique and and 197 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.720 other elements around that, and I think that you know you and I talked 198 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:05.120 in the preview with with troy in the pre interview, I kind of joked 199 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:07.240 with you about the idea that so many times I have. You know some 200 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.919 of my clients who bemoan a little bit to say, boy, if I 201 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.639 were Harvard, I wouldn't have to mark it as hard and you know, 202 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.399 you'd reference something about what's what you kind of call the H bomb. Tell 203 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.039 us a little bit about that and how that relates to to kind of what 204 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:24.679 I'm hearing on my end. Sure, so the h bomb is a by 205 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.000 the way, I will say that when I got this job, you know, 206 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:31.639 I called my mother, who my mother who is a huge fan of 207 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:35.759 Harvard University and and she was elated that I got hired to work at Harvard 208 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:41.879 Business School and she said, after a minute or so of congratulatory comments, 209 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:43.399 she said, but wait a second, why do they need a chief marketing 210 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:48.759 officer, which question I get a lot and I understand it, believe me. 211 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.360 So I would say that the the H bomb phenomenon is something that Harvard 212 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:58.240 Alumni speak about pretty regularly and it boils down to people who are affiliated with 213 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:03.320 Harvard, whether it's faculty or or alumni or, you know, students or 214 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:07.480 staff. They're always a little careful how they introduce that credential into a conversation 215 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.919 because the Harvard brand, although it is wellknown and well respected and most circles 216 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.200 it's also viewed negatively. You know, in a lot of ways people think 217 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.399 about it as an elitist brand. They they think that people who are part 218 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.679 of Harvard University are Ach you know, intellectual elites or academic elites. They're 219 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:28.639 arrogant. You know, at Harvard Business School we hear about words like greedy 220 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:31.679 and self centered a lot. I understand those perceptions exist and I'd be like 221 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.360 candidly. I had some of those. You know, when you work at 222 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.519 other institutions it's easy to look at a place like Harvard and say, man, 223 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.360 they've got it easy. You know, look at that endowment. Now, 224 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:45.519 anybody who knows about endowments knows that you can't it's not like a bank. 225 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.799 You can't go right withdraw money from the endowment. You need them. 226 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:50.960 They're important, but they're also earmarked for a lot of things. So I 227 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.440 think a big part of our job, you know, those of us who 228 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:58.840 are in marketing rolls across Harvard University, and I should just clarify I only 229 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:03.240 mon't do marketing for the business school. Harvard is a very decentralized place and 230 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.600 the law school has their own person and the Kennedy School and so on and 231 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.279 so forth. But I think a big part of my job is to help 232 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:15.360 knock down those miss perceptions about what it's like being at Harvard. We are 233 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.360 an elite institution and I think that's important and that's a big part of our 234 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.840 identity, but we're not elitist, you know. We want the best people 235 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:26.600 from around the world to come and study and work and teach at Harvard Business 236 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:30.080 School. For us it seems very, very important to of as diverse or 237 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:36.399 group as possible, and that means diversity in every realm. So you know, 238 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:41.240 the more that the better job that we can do helping anybody who hears 239 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.240 about US see themselves at Harvard Business School. You know, that's important for 240 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:48.720 us to continue to work on. That's great and I and I think you 241 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.440 even talked about too that. You know, sometimes, you know anything something 242 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.919 bad happens in business, eyes get turned a little bit to to HBS and 243 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.720 kind of talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I think I told 244 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.720 you I started in two thousand and eight and April and in October of that 245 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:11.720 year Lehman Brothers folded and the world economic collapse hit and was very you know, 246 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.240 that happened on a Friday and the emails that were flying around over the 247 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.599 weekend. We're basically, you know, between the Dean and the leadership team 248 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:22.759 were it's not going to be long before the world points their finger at Harvard 249 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.720 Business School and says, why did you let this happen? And that is 250 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.160 something that sort of goes hand in hand with beating, with being the category 251 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.079 leader. You know, HBS is looked at us sort of, you know, 252 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:34.640 one of the Pinnacle Business Schools in the world, and it is a 253 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.759 couple of others that are in that rarefied air, but we're certainly one of 254 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:44.400 them and it's understandable that when you know something goes wrong in the business world, 255 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.880 the connective tissue between HBS and Wall Street is pretty strong and I, 256 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.319 you know, I understand that people look at us for that. So we 257 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:56.119 talked at that time and ever since then, where we face criticism like this, 258 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.880 our first reaction is not to be defensive, it is to be a 259 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.359 self critical, it's to look at ourselves and say, will wait a second, 260 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.279 is there some truth to this? Should we be thinking about what we're 261 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.519 hearing here and should it in some way cause us to change the way that 262 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.799 we think about how we do our jobs and how we educate students. So 263 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:17.920 self accountability is kind of the first reaction and I would say that, you 264 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.559 know, over the years there's been many instances and in fact there's been books. 265 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:25.079 About every three years somebody writes a you know, a credible a book 266 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:29.240 that's critical of the business school. You know, we always read that there's 267 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:33.160 always going to be a certain portion of it that is a little hyperbolic and 268 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.880 you know, and that we can even easily cast off, but there's almost 269 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:40.680 always a kernel of truth to something that's in there and we have to be 270 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.759 able to read that and then be circumspected about it and look at ourselves and 271 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.599 make sure that we are being authentic to to what we say we are. 272 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.279 So that's kind of the the reaction that we have when those things happen. 273 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:55.400 Yeah, and I love the fact that you know a lot of what's coming 274 00:18:55.400 --> 00:19:00.000 out of this conversation is the idea that while yes, it's a recognizable brand 275 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.680 and yes, you've got some challenges in the way that the age bomb and 276 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.319 other things like that, at the end of the day it's a lot about 277 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:11.839 managing that tension and managing those you know, the Classic Ven Diagram where you've 278 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:14.920 got, you know what, what the world believes you are and who you 279 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.680 really are and what they need and, you know, kind of finding that, 280 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.319 you know, soft spot in the middle. It seems like that could 281 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:26.640 be applied to really any school, whether it's a large elite school like hbs 282 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.000 or whether it's a small private that has a few hundred students. It's really 283 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:34.799 managing that tension of who you are, what you're known for and what that 284 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:40.240 student needs. Yeah, I agree with that completely and I would say that 285 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:45.839 every academic institution to some extent faces the same challenge that Harvard does. Harvard 286 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.359 has it, Howard's been around longer than the rest. So I there's a 287 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.039 term that we talked about called heritage brands. You know, and and and 288 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.000 most academic brands are heritage brands to some extent. They've got a history that 289 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:00.759 they that that's a really important part of their identity and their value system and 290 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.559 and that history is important to hold on to. At the same time, 291 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.279 if you let that be your defining brand characteristic, then you're kind of stuck 292 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:14.039 in time and you can't really be looked at its innovative and forward thinking. 293 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:18.119 So the tension that we're always trying to balance is, you know, Harvard 294 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:19.960 University has been around for three hundred and, I don't know, seventy plus 295 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.440 years or something. Harvard Business School has been around for a hundred and fourteen 296 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:27.799 years at this point. We Love Our past, we love our heritage. 297 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:32.079 At the same time we don't want people to think that we aren't innovative and 298 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.680 entrepreneurial. So we try to hold on to the qualities of the past that 299 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:41.519 we think give us strength and demonstrate our leadership and at the same time we 300 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:45.880 want people to know that we are thinking about the future of management education, 301 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:49.839 not the past. That's great. In our previous conversation you had mentioned both 302 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.400 some advantages and some obstacles that I want to make sure we revisit in our 303 00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.519 conversation today. One of them that was an a half for me is when 304 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:04.240 you're managing a strong brand, or what's perceived to be a strong brand, 305 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.759 there's an issue with not being able to create a sense of urgency, and 306 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:12.079 I would like to know if you can let everyone know what you mean by 307 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:17.400 that. Yes, happy to so. Yes, I mean one of the 308 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.240 so it's great when things were going well and your brand is strong and it's 309 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.400 well recognized. Of course that's wonderful and you know, we have the benefit 310 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:27.799 of having very generous alumni who have been generous through out to us throughout the 311 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.519 years, and that's why we have such a big endowment and fundraising base. 312 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.400 I think the the flip side to that is it's hard to create a sense 313 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.559 of urgency when there's no burning platform. You know, if you're in the 314 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:44.880 private sector, if you're in a firm where sales aren't where they need to 315 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.480 be and you know you're not going to make your targets, maybe you're a 316 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:52.079 public company and you got to make your goal before the next quarterly report, 317 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.200 it's in the marketing role. In those situations it's pretty easy to say we 318 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.160 need more funds to go do this and fix this thing, or else we're 319 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.279 not you know, we're going to be in real trouble. That urgency has 320 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.599 never existed in that way at the time that I've been at Harvard Business School. 321 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:11.640 In fact, the school had never run a deficit until two years ago. 322 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:12.359 Was a two years ago. It might have been last year. I 323 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:17.920 get my fiscal years mixed up, but when covid hit, like everybody else, 324 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.200 we had to, on a dime, move everything to remote and that 325 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.240 then we had to shut down our executive education program which was a huge cut 326 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:27.880 hit to the school's financials as a result of that of, you know, 327 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:33.279 twelve plus months of not having executive education, we ran a deficit one year 328 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.119 and that was a big, big blow, you know, in terms of 329 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:41.319 our ability to always operate as an efficient business, which we pride ourselves on. 330 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:45.000 That's really the closest we've come to having a burning platform in the time 331 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.640 that I've been there, and that wasn't something that marketing could fix. That 332 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:52.039 one, unfortunately, I was a pandemic and we're still kind of facing that 333 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.359 a little bit. So I think we often, I often find myself in 334 00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:02.000 the situation where I am really advocating for brand maintenance, and maintenance matters. 335 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:06.359 If you don't if you don't maintain your foundation, your brand is your foundation, 336 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:10.160 or if you're not working to make sure that that foundations day strong, 337 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:12.759 then erosion will happen. You know, you have to actively manage it or 338 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:15.920 erosion will happen. That's an argument that I'm able to make that I think 339 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:19.400 people understand at the business school, because we take a lot of pride and 340 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:25.119 making sure that we maintain our educational foundation and we maintain the foundation of the 341 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:27.079 physical campus that we're on, because it's such an important part of what we 342 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.519 do. So I found a way to kind of make that my argument and, 343 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:37.200 you know, for investing in the Marketing Organization and an actively managing the 344 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.000 brand might work for some of your other listeners. I don't know. That's 345 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.119 great. I really like how that, how that plays out, and I 346 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:47.799 think that that's a great example. And you're right. I mean the pandemic 347 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:52.759 has impacted everybody and it's kind of even doubt a lot of a lot of 348 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.799 those things and it's it's interesting to me that, and I'm sure a lot 349 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:57.960 of ours listeners would find too that, you know, being able to pivot 350 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.640 like that, I mean some folks weren't able to pivot. Means so many 351 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:03.960 people say, oh well, we just went into our online platform, where 352 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.960 there were a lot of schools that didn't have an online platform or didn't have 353 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:11.559 you know, like with your executive education. That was not a possibility. 354 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.599 So it's it's interesting that, you know, we are all trying to figure 355 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.480 things out in this time as well. Sure another challenge that you face, 356 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:26.480 Brian, is when something happens that's popular or maybe negative in the business community, 357 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.240 fingers get pointed at Harvard, rightly or wrongly. Again, if you 358 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:34.440 can explain that scenario and you know how you manage that or how that affects 359 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:40.400 your role. Yeah, so you know, I think, I think for 360 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:42.839 our first reaction whenever those kinds of things happen is that we want to take 361 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.839 a we want to listen to what's being said, we want to take a 362 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.000 hard look at ourselves before you know, I find that the inds, the 363 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:56.359 the instinctual reaction of being defensive rarely works, and this is true in every 364 00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:00.880 place I've been, whether it's been in higher education or in the private sector. 365 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.400 You know, you can't you can't be defense without sounding defensive, and 366 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:10.880 oftentimes we find that there is some truth to what some of those those criticisms 367 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:12.920 might be about the school. So the first thing we try to do is 368 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.839 take a hard look at ourselves and say, because there's some truth, theories 369 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:21.880 or something we should be doing differently as a way to address this issue. 370 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:26.240 Our students are often, you know, challenging us on the decisions that we 371 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:29.640 make as an institution, and I think every this was something we all face 372 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:34.440 in high education, is that we've got smart, ambitious students. Were surrounded 373 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.640 by them and they're looking at what we're doing and they're looking at us as 374 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:42.279 examples of how to lead and they're going to challenge us when they think we're 375 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:47.799 not making the right decisions. So again we try to take that posture of 376 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:51.440 saying, well, let's take a step back and listen to what they're saying 377 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:53.480 and, you know, if there's some validity to their concerns that we need 378 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:57.359 to address that, you know. So that really extends into our leadership style. 379 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:02.720 I think, generally speaking, unfortunate to be part of our leadership team 380 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:06.480 that's been largely intact the whole time that I've been there. We've turned over 381 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:11.400 a few key positions, but if you look at the way that the school 382 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.519 has been run from the administrative side, that management team has been pretty solid 383 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.720 and and I feel like we've been able to weather the storm through things like 384 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.720 the pandemic and the black lives matter movement, which, you know, really 385 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:27.759 caused all of us. That's probably a good thing to just pause on for 386 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:33.480 a second. We had always talked about the importance of inclusivity and diversity and 387 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.279 we believed it. I think, you know, it was important to us, 388 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.240 but was always just kind of it was in the ether, but it 389 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.240 wasn't really something that we were really doubling down on. And the murder of 390 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.599 George Floyd and the and the the emersions of the black lives matter movement made 391 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:51.920 us and pretty much everybody else go, wait a second, you know, 392 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.759 there's something different about this. We really have to think hard about this. 393 00:26:56.119 --> 00:27:00.079 So, you know, this leadership team that unfortunate to be part of we 394 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.880 really focused in on that and the Dean did and the academic leadership deemed did 395 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.200 and we involved the students and I'm happy to say that the outcome of that 396 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:14.839 has been a sustained, really intensive effort to improve racial equity across Harvard Business 397 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.319 School, to bring in, you know, diverse faculty, to bring in 398 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:22.279 a more diverse student population, and there's a plan that we've now got in 399 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.359 place and we're following the plan and we're seeing the progress that's that's come about 400 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.799 as a result of that. You know, that's a situation where the criticism 401 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.640 was warranted and you know, we've done something about it. So I like 402 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:38.480 that we're able to, I think, respond to these situations and rise to 403 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:42.960 the occasion and, you know, I think it's important that that we all 404 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:47.599 try to do that in our in our roles as leaders in these institutions. 405 00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:52.559 Brian, as we close our episode today, as everyone knows, we see 406 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.640 Harvard as a gold standard. We like to ask for a last piece of 407 00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:00.279 advice for you from you. So, if there's a piece of advice that 408 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:04.640 you would offer other marketing officers that they could implement right away, what would 409 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:08.240 that piece of advice be? It's a really great question. It's a really 410 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.079 hard question, Troy. Thank you. Thank you for leaving me with a 411 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.160 hard one. You know, I'm going to give the advice that I often 412 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.319 give two people when they start at Harvard Business School. I talked about the 413 00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:23.200 H bomb earlier. There's a there's another phenomenon that happens and I think it 414 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:26.720 happens, you know, in all walks of life, not just at places 415 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.720 like Harvard. But it maybe it's a little more, you know, intense 416 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.960 at Harvard, where the students on the first day of class, where they're 417 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.359 being welcomed by the Dean, will often talk about sitting there thinking, Oh 418 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.960 my God, they made a mistake. How did I get into this place? 419 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.720 What am I doing here? They picked the wrong person. And I 420 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.440 think if you talked to pretty much anybody who starts a new job anywhere you 421 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.559 know, who finds himself in a position where they've all of a sudden got 422 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:53.880 new challenges and they've got to manage people, and yeah, they probably are 423 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:56.319 thinking the same thing like, Oh my God, I faked my way into 424 00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:59.240 this thing and now what am I going to do? I've got to really 425 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:02.319 live up to it and I've got a deliver. So, on the one 426 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:07.960 hand, I would say that kind of you know self doubt is not a 427 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:11.079 bad thing because it makes you really focus and think hard about what you have 428 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:15.680 to do. On the other hand, I would say that from where I 429 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.160 sit now, having been in, you know, different roles for many, 430 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.079 many years, I'm not going to tell you hold I am, but I'm 431 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.240 probably older than most of your listeners, I would say for me the one 432 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:27.359 thing that has helped and that I tell other people to do is to listen, 433 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:33.119 you know, really listen to what people are saying and listen twice as 434 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.279 much as you speak. Leaders, some leaders have in tendency, I think, 435 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:40.559 to feel like they need to solve the problem right away. You know, 436 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:42.200 they need to commit, step into the meeting and, you know, 437 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:47.720 and size things up quickly and show that they're decisive. And oftentimes, if 438 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:51.680 you just let things play out and you let the conversation play out for a 439 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:55.839 while, good ideas will emerge and, you know, maybe your job is 440 00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:59.680 just to facilitate those and to keep them coming out, and you do that 441 00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:03.759 by, I clear in the air and just kind of letting people offer their 442 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.599 advice and insights and expertise, because chances are you're surrounded by pretty smart, 443 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.559 capable people and if you give them an opportunity, you know, you might 444 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:15.279 be surprised at what they're able to accomplish and then you just get the glow 445 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.480 effect of working with them. So I would say my advice, something you 446 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:26.000 could start right away, is to just really step back and listen, you 447 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.000 know, with in ten thank you very much, Brian, for that. 448 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:34.200 We really appreciate you being our guest on our fifty episode. We wanted this 449 00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:40.359 to be a special episode and you've certainly delivered for anyone who would like to 450 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.160 contact you to continue the conversation or follow up on one of the points that 451 00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.799 you made? What would be the best way for them to contact you? 452 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:49.640 Sure. Well, first of all, thank you for it, for it's 453 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.240 quite an honor to be your fifty guest. I really do appreciate that. 454 00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:57.359 So so, Barton Troy, thank you for having me as your fifty guest 455 00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:02.599 and I've enjoyed the conversation. I'm happy to keep an eye of people can 456 00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:07.920 find me on twitter at hbscmoh. That's probably the best and easiest way to 457 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.279 get to me, so happy to if they want to direct message even or 458 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.240 that kind of thing, happy to respond great. Thank you. Thank you, 459 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.799 Brian Bart do you have any words that you would like to leave us 460 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.720 with on our fifty episode? Yeah, this has been created quite an episode. 461 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:25.960 So, Brian, thank you. A couple things that I just wanted 462 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.480 to point out and kind of pull out from some of the things that Brian 463 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:32.079 had said, I think, so many times, and he kind of alluded 464 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.640 this in several different points, but we all like to look at the other 465 00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:37.000 side of the fence and say, Oh, look how green the grass is 466 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:40.160 over there, and boy, that would be a nice problem to have. 467 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:44.240 And all, everybody has their own challenges. It doesn't matter if if we're, 468 00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.720 you know, small private college that we've talked to that I know a 469 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:51.480 lot of you out there listening are small private colleges and I know who you 470 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:53.440 are, as well as all the way up to, you know, the 471 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.799 oldest institution in the country, Harvard University. We all have our own challenges, 472 00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:02.200 we all have our own victories in our own successes. Sometimes it's better 473 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.279 to just kind of, you know, take a step back and listen and 474 00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:08.160 get your breath and just kind of go back to some of the basics of 475 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:12.960 blocking and tackling and marketing, and so I think that was a really good 476 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.400 point. You know, we all have different senses of urgency and sometimes you 477 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:20.720 don't have that, which is another problem, and so I think that Brian 478 00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:23.960 kind of pointed out that there's a lot of similarity all the way through high 479 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:28.640 Ed. I really appreciated him saying that the role of a high ed marketer 480 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:31.920 is sometimes one of the hardest roles in marketing period, and I think that 481 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:36.880 that's something that you might want to take back to your cabinet and your and 482 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:40.960 your leadership and let them know that the CMO of HBS said this. So 483 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.920 I think that you know, because we've talked to Ethan Braden at perdue and 484 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.400 his notion of you know, we need to be the drivers on campus of 485 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.400 the brand and of the marketing when it comes out of the marketing department. 486 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:54.039 We can't be driven. We can't be the short order cooks who have to 487 00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:58.599 make it look prettier by Monday. So I think there's a lot of really 488 00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:01.279 good things to kind of tone in and take into these things and really kind 489 00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:06.920 of apply to your own campus. I also really appreciated just the intentionality that 490 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:10.319 that I hear in Brian personally as well as in Harvard Business School, because 491 00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:15.279 we talked little bit about the Dei types of things, with inclusivity and with 492 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.319 and with the black lives matter and the and the intentionality that that Harvard is 493 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.000 put together with a plan. I think those types of things and even his 494 00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:27.759 last tip there where he talked about just the quite honestly, the intentionality of 495 00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:31.480 of improving your emotional intelligence, of being able to slow down, being able 496 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:36.279 to listen when you feel like you might want to talk. I think those 497 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:39.839 types of things of being an intentional marketer and intentional person, intentional member of 498 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:43.559 the team, is going to be so critical. So again, thank you 499 00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:45.519 so much, Brian. Really honor to have you on the show today. 500 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:52.000 My Summation Bart, appreciate that and congratulations to you guys on fifty episodes. 501 00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:53.759 By the way, I know as a podcaster that's a big number. That's 502 00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:57.640 a good one. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. 503 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:02.480 We are very proud of that and I want to thank everyone for joining us 504 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:07.639 on another addition, our fifty episode of the High Red Marketer podcast, which 505 00:34:07.800 --> 00:34:14.920 is sponsored by Taylor solutions and education, marketing and branding agency and by Think, 506 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:21.599 patented, a marketing execution company combining personalization and customization for your print and 507 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:25.800 mailing campaigns. On behalf of Bart Kaylor, my cohost, I'm Troye singer. 508 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:32.000 Thank you for joining our fifty episode. You've been listening to the Higher 509 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:37.239 Ed Marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the 510 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.199 show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with apple PODCASTS, we'd 511 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.599 love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the 512 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:49.280 number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,