More Than a Campus Logo: The Evolutionary Branding Process

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:07.280 You're listening to The Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:12.480 higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, 3 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:16.359 donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. 4 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:21.480 If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast 5 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:30.440 is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the Higher Ed 6 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:35.399 Marketer Podcast. I'm Troy Singer with Ring Digital. Also here with my co 7 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:40.439 host Bart Kaylor of Kaylor Solutions, and today we get to talk to Bill 8 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:47.359 Faust and he is the senior partner and chief strategy Officer of Apology, and 9 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:52.880 he is going to bring his wisdom and his experience about branding and marketing to 10 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:58.679 the conversation. And I will say it was a pleasure listening to both Bart 11 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:03.799 and Bill go through the topics of branding and marketing. Yeah, I have 12 00:01:03.959 --> 00:01:08.599 always respected Bill Anology. I think that from a distance they've they've done some 13 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:14.319 amazing work. They are really working with the biggest brands in higher education. 14 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:18.319 So you think about the D one Schools and and all of those large brands. 15 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:21.480 A lot of that work comes out of Oology in Columbus, Ohio, 16 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:26.319 and I've been really impressed with him, and this conversation was was great. 17 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:30.359 Um. We were introduced through Ethan Braden Perdu University, who has been a 18 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:33.680 guest a few times on the podcast, and I really like how Bill and 19 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:37.159 I were able to talk about branding and marketing. And I love how he 20 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:40.920 was able to kind of kind of get down to the basics and the foundations 21 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:44.120 of things so that it's very accessible, even though he does work on these 22 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:49.040 large campuses, in these large schools with large projects, we were able to 23 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:52.560 kind of put it in a place that it's accessible to the lowest shelf, 24 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.719 so that even the smallest schools that are listening are really gonna be able to 25 00:01:55.760 --> 00:02:00.920 walk away with some really key pragmatic takeaways. If you've ever wanted to get 26 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:07.239 free advice from a high level individual, don't walk away from this episode. 27 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:13.879 Here is our conversation with Bill Faust. Bill, thank you for being a 28 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.439 guest on the podcast. We are so happy and honored to have you. 29 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:23.439 Oh it's my pleasure. Thank you. We like to start out our conversations 30 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:27.680 with our guests with the question, please share with the something that you've learned 31 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:34.719 recently that you might think is interesting enough for the community to know. A 32 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:38.240 great question. I don't know if this will be interesting to everybody, but 33 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:42.400 I think my biggest revelation lately is about six weeks ago, I became a 34 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:46.719 grandparent for the first time, which thank you, which you know number one 35 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:51.599 makes me feel old, although you know you're as young as you feel, 36 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:53.840 right. But I think the thing I've learned from it is just how everybody 37 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:57.800 warned me. They're like, your priorities will change, right, You'll you'll 38 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:01.319 you'll start shifting the way you allocate your time, and you know how much 39 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:05.960 time you want to spend with your grandkid and all that, and they're absolutely 40 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:07.759 right, like it's it's all my wife. My wife and I are consumed 41 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.080 with it. Now. We're like, we're we're going to move to Baltimore 42 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:13.879 so we can be close to him. Um, not really, but I 43 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:16.639 mean, you know, we've talked about it. So so that's that's kind 44 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:21.319 of a new thing for me. That's really fun and exciting. Congratulations. 45 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:24.759 Yes, most new grandparents are shouting it from the rooftops, and I believe 46 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:29.840 everyone thinks that that's interesting. So blessings to you and your family. Thank 47 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:34.280 you. We love the fact that we have you on being a senior partner 48 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:38.759 at Apology. If you would, for those who might not be familiar with 49 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:43.800 your agency, if you can give us a brief introduction. Yeah, absolutely. 50 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.319 UM I'll start with Oology and then I can sort of fill in a 51 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:51.759 little bit about me. But Apology Oology is a is a branding and marketing 52 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:58.879 agency, UM that is focused almost exclusively on education. Most of that is 53 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:02.919 higher education, so a core clients or colleges and universities, and we do 54 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:10.360 work with what I call some adjacent categories and healthcare, museum as cultural organizations, 55 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:15.439 but most of those are come to us because there somehow connected to education, 56 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.720 or they have an educational mission or or or might be a fundraising connection 57 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:23.639 or something like that. UM. So you know, we we basically do 58 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:27.319 marketing for the greater good, and uh, you know, I love it 59 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:29.720 because every day we get up and say, okay, not only are we 60 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:31.560 going to do fun stuff, but you know it's going to make the world 61 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:35.959 a little bit better anyway. UM. So that's ology. We've been around 62 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:41.480 for thirty or five years, but kind of our current self is about years 63 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:46.079 old ish um, and my role. I'm one of the two partners along 64 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.639 with Bev Ryan, who found anology. I tend to focus on more of 65 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:53.920 what I call the the outside stuff, the you know, finding new clients 66 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:59.000 and our marketing efforts and our account management and relationship management efforts. And then 67 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:02.639 when I can and I actually roll up my sleeves and participate as a strategist 68 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:08.240 with key, key relationships, key accounts, which is also super fun. 69 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:12.879 So kind of that's it in a nutshell, Thank you. We're going to 70 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:16.120 talk about both marketing and branding. Would like to know from your seat and 71 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:21.959 your experience when it comes to how an institutions should look at their brand. 72 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.879 What we do you think or in your opinion, what is the best way 73 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:33.120 for them to do so? Um all the time. That's a little bit, 74 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:35.800 that's a little bit of a joke, but there's some logic behind it. 75 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:41.920 Well. I mean, you know, what I would call contemporary definition 76 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:46.800 of a brand, um is that it's about a lot more than sort of 77 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:48.720 the traditional definition, right. I mean the word branding, you know, 78 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:53.279 derived from you know, putting a brand on cattle, right, Um, 79 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:57.279 So it was a logo, a stamp of mark. Um. But today, 80 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:02.439 it's about an organizations kind of offer their experience, experience that they give 81 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:09.720 to all their stakeholders. Um, and then the story that you tell authentically 82 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:14.319 to you know, convey what that offer is and what that what that value 83 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:16.600 proposition, if I can use a little jargon is. And so it's a 84 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:20.560 very nuanced and complex thing. And when I joked and said all the time, 85 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:29.839 it's because you know, brand managing a brand is a day year effort. 86 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:31.959 And occasionally someone will say to me like, oh, we did our 87 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.839 brand three years ago, and I'm like, I don't even understand that, 88 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:39.079 you know, like did your brand. And what they're saying is is that 89 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:41.199 they took a fresh look at it, and they might have, you know, 90 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:45.560 kind of taking a deeper dive than normal. But I think if you 91 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.240 manage your brand all the time, you don't have to do that. It's 92 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:53.279 an evolutionary process. And so I've said to people, I want to put 93 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:58.680 rebranding out of business and just you know, celebrate brand management. Yeah. 94 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:00.560 I think that's a great point their bill, and I know that we kind 95 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.639 of got introduced through Ethan Braden, who's been a podcast guest a couple of 96 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:09.199 times from his role as a CMO at Pretty University. And I know that 97 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:15.279 you and Ethan worked together on the Persistent Pursuit brand branding that they are working 98 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:18.439 on and working out, uh, And I think Ethan has a great passion 99 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:21.959 on that, and I think you're right. I think that it's unfortunate that 100 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:29.000 so many colleges, universities especially get confused a little bit on what this is. 101 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:30.959 That it is just that logo, or it is that color palette or 102 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:32.879 you know, hey, we've got that under control. We didn't need to 103 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:36.160 worry about that. But I try to tell people sometimes too, it's it's 104 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.680 it's as simple as what do I feel when I walk in from my car? 105 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:44.040 I mean, what what is what is the experience that I'm having getting 106 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:47.319 frustrated finding a parking spot as a prospective student or or as a donor or 107 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:49.879 whatever. So you know, unpack that a little bit, because I think 108 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:55.879 it's it's something that I think every president and provost and you know, enrollment 109 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:58.839 professional need to kind of keep in mind. And maybe you can kind of 110 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:03.079 explain a little bit more. Yes, I couldn't agree with you more. 111 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.160 Um, I think so, First of all, I love what you said 112 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:13.600 there because one of the benefits many benefits working with Ethan, but one of 113 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.800 them is he has brought some of his other agencies to Produe that he used 114 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.160 to work with it at Eli Lily places that he was in the past, 115 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.759 and one of them is a company called Brand Trust out of Chicago. There 116 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:30.000 is mostly a research agency. But but what I love about their philosophy is 117 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.919 they sort of boil it down simply to the most important thing about a brand 118 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.120 is how it makes you feel. They have books about this, and it 119 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:39.799 sounds so simple, but it's not. And it is something that I think 120 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:46.679 a lot of leaders in higher ed find a little too elusive to wrap their 121 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.000 arms around. Um. And so that's why, you know, you have 122 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:54.200 to have a discipline of answering that question. You know, how do we 123 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:56.399 want students to feel? How do we want parents to feel? How do 124 00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:05.679 we want alumni to feel when they think about Perdue or Nebraska or Sarah Lawrence 125 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.639 or whoever? And so I really think that, you know, I always 126 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:13.159 sort of try to bring it back to that and always remind people that the 127 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.399 things you said, like logos and color palettes, those are symbols. Those 128 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:22.440 are tools that should be derived from you know, kind of what do we 129 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:24.919 stand for and how do we want people to feel about us? Yeah, 130 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.600 and I think it's important too. And and you know, just you and 131 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:31.399 I talked earlier when I was inviting you on the show that you know, 132 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.759 we we have similar roles, We've got similar agencies. We just happened to 133 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.320 fish in different ponds. Um, you guys are doing work with with Produce 134 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:41.639 and Nebraskas and other ones. I've got a smaller pond that I'm fishing in. 135 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.799 And but I think that one of the things And because I have such 136 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:50.159 a broad range of listeners trying to I do on this podcast, sometimes I 137 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:52.879 think people get scared and they think, oh, you're talking about branding. 138 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.559 That's a that's a very expensive endeavor that we would never be able to afford. 139 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.399 We could never do that. But I think when you it down to 140 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:05.000 the point when we start talking about how are you making people feel, there's 141 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:07.240 a lot of things that people can do without bringing in a huge agency, 142 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:11.759 bringing in other people, because a lot of it gets down to, well, 143 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:15.360 how would I want to experience this place if I were coming in for 144 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:18.279 the first time. Talk about that, because I'm sure that's part of the 145 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:20.840 exercises that you do even as a strategist. And that's a great point part 146 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:26.120 managing a brand, developing a brand strategy. It doesn't require what you and 147 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:31.519 I do. We're happy that there are some there's some institutions out there that, 148 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:33.240 you know, say, hey, we need some extra help here. 149 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:35.000 So we're happy about that. But but you know, if you're a marketing 150 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:41.480 leader at a small college or a small anything, thankly, um, it's 151 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.879 it. You know, there's plenty of resources to help you figure out how 152 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.440 to define. You know, what do we stand for as a as an 153 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:50.919 organization, as a brand? Um? What does that mean that in terms 154 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.440 of the way we deliver our offer, the way we communicate, the way 155 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.080 we you know, create an experience every day. Um. And I think 156 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.440 everybody should do that. I think if you have a bed and breakfast, 157 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.039 you should do that and you don't have to hire anyone to do it. 158 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:09.519 If you get into specific things like oh, we want a better logo, 159 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:11.440 then sure, if you don't have graphic designers on staff, you need some 160 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:15.879 specific help. But that's the last stuff you should get to. I think 161 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:18.360 the most important stuff is, you know, kind of the ethos of the 162 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:24.279 organization and then how you live that every day, um and and and so 163 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:26.039 I think I think it can be for everybody. And I don't think it 164 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:31.120 requires an agency necessarily. I've told people before, if you want to figure 165 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.519 out my philosophy and my marketing on you go read my blog and my content. 166 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:37.799 It's all there. But people are like, I don't have time. 167 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.720 I would rather hire you to do it. That's that's what it comes down 168 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.399 to a lot of times. But I think that it's interesting too. You 169 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.200 talked about that ethos and someone I was having a conversation with somebody the other 170 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:52.039 day talking about the difference between Starbucks and Duncan. It's like there's two different 171 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:54.919 experiences that both of them are representing their brand. One is, you know, 172 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:01.080 the idea of sitting down, enjoying conversation, having a a second place 173 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.679 to be able to do life. And and it's inviting them to stay. 174 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:09.039 Duncan's designed where you know America runs. It's it's fast, it's get them 175 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:11.039 in, get them out. You know, there's not that warm sense of 176 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:15.000 you're gonna hang out and Duncan and just you know, have your meetings. 177 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.559 There two separate brands. Ultimately, selling the same product in a lot of 178 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:24.799 ways, but there's different experiences and they draw different crowds and different individuals to 179 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.159 those brands based on that, And I think that's the key sometimes is as 180 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:33.120 an institution, um, as a college or university, understanding your audience well 181 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:39.159 enough to know how to position who you are naturally to be able to draw 182 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:45.519 the right type of mission fit students, donors, engagement. How do you 183 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:50.919 feel about that? First of all, I use I think retail is one 184 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:56.879 of the best places to draw analogies to hire ed even though sometimes people bristle 185 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.519 a little bit because they feel like it's somehow cheapens the conversation or something. 186 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.399 But that's a great example. I hadn't thought of that example. The one 187 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.559 I always use when I get pushed back is Lows and Home depot, who 188 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:11.759 essentially sell the same stuff um and it's in their general merchandisers right, they 189 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:15.840 sell a lot of different stuff Because schools will often say, well, we 190 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.679 it's easy for Pratt to define its brand because they only do you know, 191 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.039 sort of design and architecture, But we can't do that. And I'm like, 192 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.000 no, you can. If you look at Lows and Home depot Lows 193 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:28.720 has said, or home depot has said, you know, we're going after 194 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:33.080 a kind of the contractor um that it's more of a male audience. It's 195 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.879 more of a roll up or sleeves d I true, d I y audience. 196 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:41.000 Loses said, we're going to go more after after the homeowner who isn't 197 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:45.039 confident, who might be female, who might you know, want some help 198 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:50.120 doing some of these projects and choosing the right things. And they're both legit 199 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:54.440 brand positionings. They go after slightly different markets, you know, with the 200 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.320 kind of a similar offer, but they their whole experience is different because of 201 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:05.240 who they're going. I think every college university can think that way and develop 202 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.720 their own brand. Yeah. I think that's a great, great example. 203 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:16.200 I love that. We would also like to get your expertise, your opinion 204 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:20.919 on marketing and maybe starting out by describing some of the trends that you are 205 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:26.080 noticing or the changes that you're seeing that's going on within higher ed marketing. 206 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.960 No, great, Um, well, I think hired marketing. You know, 207 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:35.120 marketing, branding is a big word. Marketing is kind of an even 208 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:39.600 bigger word, and so you have to definitely have to unpack it a lot, 209 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.799 But I view marketing and sort of taking everything about the brand, the 210 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:48.559 story of the value proposition and putting it out there UM, so that you 211 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:50.840 know, you're kind of driving some collection of results. And I think in 212 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:56.759 higher ed the marketing lights are burning brightest and enrollment right now, enrollment campaigns, 213 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:01.320 enrollment marketing efforts, ongoing efforts. Probably just right behind them. Right 214 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:05.919 behind enrollment is you know, kind of fundraising and philanthropy and advancement. And 215 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:09.720 then we're seeing a growing marketing effort and just reputation building, you know, 216 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:16.440 just kind of some people call it brand marketing, and I think that's going 217 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.200 to continue as well. So all three of those are a little different because 218 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.279 they focus on slightly different audiences, but they're all starting to use the same 219 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:28.960 you know kind of approach and are similar approaching techniques. Like so trends we're 220 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:35.039 seeing digital first, absolutely, but not digital only. It's about getting in 221 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.879 the right mix, so some traditional media still makes sense and certain for certain 222 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:43.440 audiences and certain channels. UM. It's also about you know, a more 223 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.799 differentiated message, um, and and how important it is and how important and 224 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.039 that comes from the brand, so how important you know it is to to 225 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:56.159 have that differentiated message, not just sit on the shelf and your brand standards, 226 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:00.480 but actually be in the marketplace and be tied to a specific you know, 227 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:06.200 call to action or something like that. So I see in marketing and 228 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:10.080 hire it, I see more rapid change than I do on the brand side. 229 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.840 But it kind of makes sense when you think about what's happening, you 230 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.840 know, to hire a changing from all different angles. Yeah, I love 231 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:19.919 that, and I love the fact that you really pointed out that differentiating Um. 232 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:22.960 That's one of the things that I continually talk a lot about. I'm 233 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.559 sure you do as well. Where you know, people, especially in enrollment, 234 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.759 they want to talk about, well, here's our cross apps, who 235 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.720 who's our competition, this is how we're working with it, this is what 236 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:36.360 we're doing. And UM, at least for me, a lot of times, 237 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.919 I'm kind of in a vertical a niche within Higher ed where it's like, 238 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.200 well, we're another faith based school just up the road, just like 239 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.360 that other faith based school. Like okay, no you're not. There's differences, 240 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.080 there's uniqueness about your school. What is something that you do that no 241 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.799 one else can do differently? And and I really challenge people on that, 242 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.360 and I'm sure that you get these conversations too. You know, we're in 243 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.440 our one in institution, just like they're in our one institution or different things 244 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:04.960 like that. There's that idea of really being able to kind of lean into 245 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:11.240 what is truly unique and different about your experience, your brand, everything about 246 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:12.720 who they are. I mean, what are some of the things that you 247 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:17.519 run into when people are pushing back on the differentiated or do they find it? 248 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:21.119 Do bigger schools have kind of that already figured out sometimes and they know 249 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:26.279 where to start? Um, I would say no, I think all schools 250 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:33.119 struggle with that, right like bigger, smaller, highly ranked not highly ranked 251 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.359 it. I don't think it matters. And I just think it's because higher 252 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:42.720 ed came from a place that was relatively not competitive. It was collegial where 253 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:47.160 the world comes from. Um. And and even to the point where and 254 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:49.279 this still happens today, which is kind of cool actually that hired you know, 255 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:55.920 shares sort of best practices and so it there was not the pressure to 256 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.200 have a differentiated message, you know, even even heard schools you know, 257 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.640 like we're the hard it of the Midwest, as you know. But I 258 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:07.440 think today, especially in enrollment. You have to have you have to define 259 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:14.599 what it is that authentically makes you you um and every school is different. 260 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:19.119 You just have to dive deeper. Layer after layer two you get to how 261 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:23.880 it's different. Sometimes it's a culture, sometimes it's sometimes it is just the 262 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:30.680 way you package your message, and that's okay. You know, you can 263 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.119 have two schools that are almost identical in terms of their offer and their size 264 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.400 and their location, but one, like faith based schools, is interesting. 265 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.400 You know, you can have two Jesuit schools and one can talk about itself 266 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:47.599 very differently than another. Loyal Loyal Merimount can talk about itself very differently than 267 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:52.519 Gonzaga, And maybe that's the biggest difference. But that conversation they're having, 268 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:57.839 that brand story, it's probably different because it's based on how they were founded, 269 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.559 how they approach, you know, blending their faith and their educational approach. 270 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.119 So I think it's just I think it's just diving deep. You just 271 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:10.559 can't do it on the surface because on the surface a lot of schools look 272 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:12.039 the same. Yeah, it's really I like how you talked about that. 273 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.720 It's almost like mining. You have to mind that information out of the institution. 274 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:21.000 And the institutionals shared knowledge, and I think that's the importance of a 275 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:22.720 lot of focus groups. Let me go back to something else that you just 276 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.119 talked about, to this idea of that. You know, we've talked about 277 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:27.960 enrollment, we talked about advancement. I'm sure a lot of my audience was 278 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:33.759 like, what was that third one? He talked about that reputation marketing And 279 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.359 you'll unpack that a little bit, because I think that's an interesting, Like 280 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.759 you said, it's an interesting new, um, new direction that a lot 281 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:42.960 of schools are taking, and it's not for everyone. But tell me a 282 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:48.480 little bit about what what you're experiencing with that. Yeah, I think it's 283 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.519 it varies by school. I mean, we have had some schools come to 284 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:55.200 us with this ask, with this request, and their motivation was to move 285 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:57.440 up in the rankings, right, So some sometimes it's driven by that, 286 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:02.759 which I I agree and disagree with. Like, I understand the sentiment, 287 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:07.759 but but I don't. I don't advise any school to to sort of focus 288 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:10.880 too much on the rankings. That's easy for me to say, but but 289 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:15.200 I think I think more the cases, um, you know, like we 290 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.400 just we just were in the process of doing a large kind of reputation building 291 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.400 campaign with the University of Pittsburgh, and their goal is simply to make sure 292 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:30.240 that they're understood beyond their kind of traditional footprint of western Pennsylvania, UM and 293 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:36.720 the surrounding contiguous states. So that the campaign is meant to remind people what 294 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:41.400 Pit's all about. And it's to remind people in the Northeast corridor and in 295 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.480 d C and and in Philadelphia, which you'd think, like, well, 296 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.279 that's the same state, but Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, like they might as well 297 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.599 be different states. UM. And so it's really just to make sure that 298 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.400 people understand. It's the build awareness, but it's also to make sure they 299 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:59.319 understand, like what's what's BIT all about, like what drives them, what 300 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:02.519 you know, kind of what's behind them, UM, so that they can 301 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:07.680 be in the consideration setting not just for enrollment, but for funding for research 302 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:14.640 projects, for you know, competing for philanthropic dollars when you have multiple households 303 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.480 where you might have a penn State grad and a PIT grad and a lot 304 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.799 of different people in the household. So I think it's kind of like it 305 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:25.720 drive it supports all efforts. It's kind of an umbrella campaign. That's great, 306 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.039 and I think that a lot of times those types of campaigns and even 307 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.440 down to enrollment and development, everything that has to do with marketing, I 308 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:37.039 think comes out of somebody thinking about marketing on the campus kind of all the 309 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:40.519 time. And I think part of what I wanted to talk about. We 310 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.640 had Terry Flannery on the podcast a few weeks ago, and you know, 311 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:47.680 she's written the book How to Marketing University, and one of the things that 312 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.720 we talked about on the podcast that she was quite passionate about that I've given 313 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.000 a lot of thought too, is is the idea of having marketing in some 314 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.359 voice at the at the cabinet level. UM. You know, a lot 315 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:03.200 of times it might be a chief marketing officer like like it some of the 316 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:07.519 larger institutions. Other times it might be the combination of a vice president of 317 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:11.519 enrollment and marketing or advancement. Sometimes marketing rolls up underneath them. Sometimes I've 318 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.000 seen it just you know, literally the director of marketing reports directly to the 319 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.839 president. UM, help me understand a little bit about what you see and 320 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:22.759 where that's going, because, UM, I'm working with some small schools right 321 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.119 now that and I had this conversation just a few minutes ago with part of 322 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:30.799 my team, is that sometimes there's not an understanding of what marketing is doing, 323 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:37.039 and even though it repulsed reports up to a leader, the leader sometimes 324 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:41.480 isn't necessarily recognizing the importance that marketing could be doing other than just generating more 325 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:45.039 leads. And so, you know, unpack that for me a little bit. 326 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:49.559 Yeah, I agree with everything you said. And in the last you 327 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:52.720 know, we've been in higher at about a dozen years and in that timeframe 328 00:22:52.799 --> 00:23:03.039 we've seen a continuous evolution toward a centralized, more focused marketing leader leadership model 329 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.400 almost always on the cabinet, at cabinet level um. And I think, 330 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:10.680 I think it's I think it's required. I don't even I'm not even saying 331 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:12.359 anymore it's preferred. I'm saying it's required. Now. I know there's a 332 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:17.279 lot of schools out there that don't have that. But you know, my 333 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:21.839 advice would be to keep keep pushing finagling, you know, get your board 334 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:26.119 members involved, whatever it takes, because it's it's the way that it's the 335 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.599 successful way, but it's also the way a lot of other industries have proven 336 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.079 that you know, marketing needs to be at the table and needs to have 337 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:38.480 that voice. Um. Sometimes it's it's connected to the areas like advancement and 338 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:44.119 enrollment that have the biggest voice in the brand. Other times it's a chief 339 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:48.799 marketing and communications officer, because especially with smaller schools, there's a legacy of 340 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.119 more of a communications kind of newsroom function. I don't think there's any right 341 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.119 answer to that. I think the biggest right answer is is you know, 342 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:02.119 higher ed can't spend its way to fame, right, they're just you just 343 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:06.440 hired, just can't compete yet with the budgets that other categories have. So 344 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:11.000 if you fracture the brand by having it, you know, spread across multiple 345 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:15.279 people, Um, you're going to work against yourself. You're going to create 346 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:19.240 your own headwind. If if you consolidate as much as possible and speak with 347 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:25.160 one voice and have one marketing effort that serves all the functions within the college 348 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:29.920 or university, you're going to be able to overcome that disadvantage more quickly and 349 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.880 more efficiently. Yeah, that's great, and I think you just rightly pointed 350 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.480 out that there's a lot of different levels at different institutions and we're not going 351 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.359 to be able to spend our way to that type of competition maybe in the 352 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.960 other industries and types of things. But one of the things that I do 353 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.680 know that happens when you do have somebody that is a chief marketing officer or 354 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.960 somebody really understands marketing well at a leadership level, is they're really looking at 355 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:57.640 those key performance indicators. They're really being able to take the data that is 356 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.799 being generated by everything that we're doing. I mean, you know, we 357 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:06.160 can we can take data out of systems like slate and and enrollment data, 358 00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:10.200 we can take it out of you know, systems for for advancement. But 359 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:11.880 then we also with all of our digital campaigns, I mean we have we 360 00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:15.440 have data you know at the ready. What are some of the KPI s 361 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.880 that that you, you know, as a strategist start looking at from marketing 362 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:22.240 that you kind of help your clients to focus on. And I know that 363 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:26.359 varies based on whether it's enrollment or advancement or reputation, but I mean, 364 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:30.720 just for just for a common you know, three or four KPIs that you 365 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.319 think are important for people to be paying attention to. We always advise no 366 00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:37.880 matter what, even if we're not doing branding work for a client, we 367 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.519 always advise that they have a kind of a brand dashboard or like a brand 368 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:48.079 health um you know kind of uh collection of KPI s and those are pretty 369 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:53.960 straightforward. I mean awareness is one. It's not automatically measured in the marketplace, 370 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:56.599 so it might be one that you have to measure yourself. Uh, 371 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:02.000 you know, perceptions and association is another one, and again that's not something 372 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.000 that's measured. I do think as long as the rankings are out there, 373 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:07.000 you need to you know, have those as part of the dashboard. And 374 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.519 then I think it's just the overall you know, metrics of areas like enrollment 375 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:17.519 advancement UM and and how and and the things that you know, kind of 376 00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:22.599 marketing drives to move those forward. There's a lot of things that marketing doesn't 377 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.680 necessarily have control over, like you know, your financial aid package or or 378 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.240 things like that. But but I those are the kind of things we recommend 379 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.359 in a brand dashboard. And then everything else when we get into KPIs is 380 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:37.160 kind of at the campaign level, uh, you know, engagement KPI s 381 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.440 and you know kind of r O I for you know, kind of a 382 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:45.880 media spend or an over all effort for a campaign. I'm not a big 383 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:53.000 fan of the legion approach to especially enrollment, because I think it focuses too 384 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.680 much on KPIs and not enough on putting the right message in the right place 385 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:03.279 at the right time. Um. I understand where it comes from, but 386 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:07.200 um, but I think that schools over time are going to learn that just 387 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:12.119 generating leads, you know, is you know, you can gain that system, 388 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.839 but you can end up creating other problems like retention problems and that. 389 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.839 Yeah, because I mean at the end of the day, and what we've 390 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:22.799 worked with a client recently just on the idea of generating leads, but we've 391 00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:26.359 got to have mission fit leads. And I mean I don't mean mission fit 392 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:29.200 sounds like it's only a faith based type of thing, but there's a mission 393 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:33.480 fit for every university. It's it's the idea of is are the right students 394 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:36.759 who are going to succeed the most at your institutions, the ones that are 395 00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:40.680 actually you know, getting in the inquiry pool from an enrollment standpoint and going 396 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:45.000 through And so I think that's really critical and I really appreciate that that idea 397 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:47.440 and I think that going back to what you said about the KPIs on the 398 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:49.880 brand dashboard, teasing this out for some of the smaller schools that might be 399 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:52.000 listening and they're like, oh, yeah, that sounds great. If if 400 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.079 I could have research done every year, Well you actually can, I mean 401 00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:00.720 admitted student research. That's a good way to as you're some of that. 402 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.920 Um, you know, you can certainly do some surveys with with alumni or 403 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.880 even just uh, you know, there's there's a lot of ways to get 404 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.400 that awareness, that perception research. And again it goes back to you know, 405 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.039 reading some books, following up just reading some things. There's there's ways 406 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.000 to bring all this down to the lowest shelf. And I think a lot 407 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:23.759 of times that uh, it gets discounted too quickly because we're small. And 408 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:27.480 so I just think that these these uh, these ideas are things that I 409 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:32.319 want people to kind of keep in mind without getting tripped up on the fact 410 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:34.200 of dismissing it to say I'm not big enough to be able to do that. 411 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.319 I agree, there's a lot of tools out there. Um and and 412 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.759 yeah, I completely agree that you should start with the metrics you already collect. 413 00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.279 Um, maybe just work a little harder to figure out, you know, 414 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:51.920 the impact of marketing and brand work on those metrics and then measuring awareness, 415 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:56.759 you know, it just depends on what your strategy is. Like I've 416 00:28:56.759 --> 00:28:57.880 heard, I've had some small schools say to us, like, we want 417 00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:02.279 to be a national brand, and I've as questions why, you know, 418 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.279 like do you need to do that? Sure, if you get some kids 419 00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:07.759 from across the country, that's great, but you know, why don't show 420 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.799 them the backyard start there and then and then that awareness is easier to measure. 421 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.039 And sometimes I think even though small schools missed the opportunity that they could 422 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.200 be a national brand within a certain niche of where they are, so like 423 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:23.160 within a church or within a diocese or different areas of being able to be 424 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:27.160 known within the context of who you are. Um, you know, you 425 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:30.119 don't have to be the national brand that is, you know, the the 426 00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:34.359 D one football team that's on Saturday afternoons. Bill, I would like to 427 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:40.960 revisit a conversation that we had off the podcast here on the podcast, if 428 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.799 you allow, and it was because your opinion was so insightful and you said 429 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:51.759 it was some passion and that's the topic of the new shiny object approach to 430 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:57.160 enrollment marketing and would like to know what you're seeing and uh, give us 431 00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:02.759 your opinion on that and may be you know what you would recommend as an 432 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:10.319 alternative for some of the schools that follow that logic. Yeah, And what 433 00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:15.440 I what I mean by that is, um that I think too many schools 434 00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:22.160 and their enrollment functions have you know, are sort of tempted to seek out 435 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.720 a solution that is that is you know, a technology driven solution that is 436 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.440 going to you know, kind of be that to use an older term, 437 00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:32.799 killer app if you will, Um, that's going to just you know, 438 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:37.440 definitely like beat everybody else's approach and get us you know, fill our funnel 439 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.119 and it's all going to be the rate. And and while I'm not anti 440 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:42.880 technology, I'm very pro technology. I'm very you know, as I said, 441 00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:48.319 we're a digital first mindset agency. Um, if you if you don't 442 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.759 have the right story, if you don't have the right value proposition, the 443 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.279 right message, no technology will save you, right I mean. And and 444 00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:03.200 so you have to work the whole old spectrum from you know again, what 445 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:04.960 do we stand for, what do we offer? And then if that, 446 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:10.680 if you can convert that into a really compelling message and story. Then leverage 447 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:17.000 technology those shiny objects whatever they are channel you know CRM, I mean, 448 00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.319 you know what they all are, and then there's all sorts of variants of 449 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:26.039 those kind of things. Then leverage those because you've got good ammunition to start 450 00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:30.319 with. When I go to a conference like NACAC and I kind of wander 451 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.079 the exhibit hall, I just see so much emphasis on, you know, 452 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.559 kind of the killer app mentality, and I'm looking around for like, who 453 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:42.279 has a really good enrollment story, like helping me find that, and maybe 454 00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:45.640 a knack ats just not the right place to find that. But I'm not 455 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.640 you know, it's a great conference, but but that's kind of what I 456 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.279 mean. And yeah, I am a little passionate about that because I used 457 00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:53.680 to do a lot of work in banking and it was the same thing. 458 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.279 This was decades ago, but it was the same thing when banking was sort 459 00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.240 of going through its disruption. Is that you know, there was was going 460 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:01.880 to be a technology that was going to save banking. And I'm like, 461 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:07.240 I think customer service and experience has a lot to do with why people want 462 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:08.960 to bank with you as opposed to just you know, you have a better 463 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:15.680 online bank. That's great. I agree with that, and I think that 464 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:17.720 sometimes those shiny objects, I mean, I can't tell you, Bill, 465 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.160 and you're hearing the same thing. It's like, well, what should we 466 00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:22.279 do on TikTok? What should we do? And be real? And I'm 467 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.519 like, you know, you've got to figure out what you're gonna say before 468 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.039 you even sign up for the for the account. And there's there is that 469 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:34.279 sense that if we just do this, or if we just got that app, 470 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.039 or if we just you know, did more of this lead gion, 471 00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:39.279 than we would have all of our problems solved, and it's going to turn 472 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:43.599 into other problems later on. I agree with your your assessment on that you 473 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:51.160 said earlier. So thanks for that that perspective. Our last question for you 474 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:53.480 today, Bill, if there was a piece of advice that you could give 475 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:59.440 that one of our listeners could take and implement immediately that you feel would move 476 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:05.400 the needle for them, what piece of advice would you offer? Wow, 477 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:12.279 that's a big one. Um so many. I I think probably the area 478 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:17.400 that I see that is that I wish I wouldn't see that. I see 479 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:23.119 a lot is where so much emphasis on branding and marketing is a is about 480 00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:29.039 the outside versus the inside. What I mean by that is, you know, 481 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:35.519 get some get alignment right, work hard to get not just within your 482 00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:38.759 small group of marketing and communications or large group whatever it is, get alignment 483 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:45.279 across the institution. UM. And in terms of what you're trying to do, 484 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:49.480 what's your story is what your messages? Um? You know, great 485 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:53.240 brands, great marketing efforts start with everybody you know, kind of being on 486 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:57.279 the same page. I mean it sounds kind of cliche and trite, but 487 00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:01.160 it's true. UM. And so often we first meet with somebody and we 488 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:05.119 asked the question, like what kind of what's the climate on campus in terms 489 00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:07.760 of a support of branding understanding of it or support of marketing understanding of it. 490 00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:10.840 If we get an answer that's like, wow, it's not great, 491 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.079 but don't worry about them, I'm like, I'm just like, no, 492 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:21.079 like time out. UM. And I've just seen it time and time again 493 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:24.320 when the school takes the time to get the inside right. Years ago, 494 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:29.440 we worked with West Virginia right after dr Ge got there for the second time. 495 00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:32.119 And what I loved about the experience we had is we worked on their 496 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:35.960 brand for I don't know, four to six months, and then they told 497 00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:37.360 us, they said, we're not rolling this out for another four to six 498 00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:42.079 months because we want to get all the deans and all the department heads and 499 00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:45.599 all the you know, all the internal leaders and stakeholders really aligned on this 500 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:51.239 before we buy one billboard place one digital ad and I was like, wow, 501 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.320 you yes, three more of this, so that would be the one 502 00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:59.159 I would jump on. That's great, thank you, Bill, And I 503 00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:02.880 would argue with thoughts like that is the reason why schools bring the both of 504 00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:07.960 you in, So thank you very much. I'm sure that people would after 505 00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:12.360 listening, would like to reach out to you, and what's the best way 506 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.599 for someone to get a hold of you? What would that be? I 507 00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:17.280 try to be, even even though I'm an old grandfather, which I shared 508 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:21.960 with you already, try to be as active on as many platforms as possible. 509 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.039 I mean, clearly email is always great, be fau statology, dot 510 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:30.519 com is is pretty easy to remember, but you know, linked in Twitter 511 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:34.039 like like all those platforms, Instagram might try to be on all them so 512 00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.119 if anybody ever wants to reach out, and of course you know Alog dot 513 00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:40.119 com Um, you know there's there's ways to reach me on that as well. 514 00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:44.480 We're always willing to connect with people, but pretty easy to find. 515 00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:49.239 I think very good. Well, thank you for your time and the wisdom 516 00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.599 that you shared with us and the audience. Bart, do you have any 517 00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:57.280 final thoughts that you would like to share. I really enjoyed the conversation. 518 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.119 Bill, thank you so much for being a part of the of the podcasts, 519 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:01.480 and Um, I just want to point out a few things that Bill 520 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:05.719 said that I think are so important. Is that we talk a lot about 521 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:07.599 branding, we talk a lot about messaging. We talk a lot about techniques 522 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:10.360 and ways to do that. But I think that a couple of things that 523 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:14.159 Bill has said a couple of times during this conversation that I just want to 524 00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:16.840 re emphasize. So whether we all understand and we all agree we have to 525 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:20.960 start with messaging, we have to start with what differentiates you and who are 526 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:24.280 you. Brands grow out of that, our marketing campaigns grow out of that, 527 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:29.360 the communications grows out of And I think that alignment part that he talked 528 00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:32.440 about at the very end is so critical, is that can you define who 529 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:36.760 you are and what makes you different? Can you put that in a messaging 530 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:39.480 platform and can you get everyone on campus to degree on that then you can 531 00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:43.119 go after all those shiny objects, all the things that you need to do 532 00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.719 with the different ways that you're going to execute that campaign. But I really 533 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:50.280 appreciate the fact that Bill is kind of starting at the ground floor, at 534 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:53.199 the building blocks of where we need to go. And so um, really 535 00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:58.159 thanks again Bill, It's been a wonderful conversation and UH really appreciate all of 536 00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:00.559 the the inspiration that you've pre vided me personally over the years. So thank 537 00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:05.119 you, well, thank you. That's I'm thrilled to be on this and 538 00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:07.519 looking forward to hearing how it turns out. But thanks for the invit. 539 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:14.039 I really appreciate it, sure thing. The Hired Marketer podcast is sponsored by 540 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:21.559 Kaylor Solutions and Education marketing and branding agency and by Ring Digital, providing significant 541 00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:27.039 lift and yield following your list with precisely targeted ads. And also we could 542 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:31.480 not do this podcast without our superstar producer, Rob Conlin of Westport Studios, 543 00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:36.599 So again on behalf of our guests, Bill Faust, Bart Kaylor and myself 544 00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:43.280 Troy Singer. Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the higher 545 00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.480 ed marketer. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the 546 00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:52.480 show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with Apple Podcasts, we'd 547 00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:54.840 love for you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the 548 00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:59.559 number of stars do you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,