The DEI Viewfinder: A Practical Tool for Highlighting Inclusion

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:07.280 You're listening to The Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:12.480 higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, 3 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:16.359 donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. 4 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:21.480 If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast 5 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:30.079 is for you. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the High Ed 6 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:36.119 Marketer Podcast. I'm Troy Singer along with Bart Kaylor, and our episode today 7 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:43.560 is going to tackle the topic of diversity, equity and inclusion and how to 8 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:48.240 pursue it and improve it within your marketing. We are going to be talking 9 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:52.679 to Katie Jensen. She's from the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota, 10 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.439 and they've done a lot of work. They've presented at a m A a 11 00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:59.679 couple of times on it, so a lot of people are talking about the 12 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:04.120 work that they do and the viewfinder that they've shared. Bart is familiar with 13 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:10.000 it, and Bart I think our conversation with her is very eye opening, 14 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:15.799 especially for colleges and universities who are starting to look deeper into how to improve 15 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:21.400 this topic within their marketing. Yeah, it is Troy and it's interesting. 16 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.040 The journey of of getting introduced to Katie and and the folks at St. 17 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:27.159 Thomas came came via the fact that I had a client that reached out and 18 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:30.400 said, hey, I'd love to take a look at our our materials and 19 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.280 see I see it through the lens of d e I. And they knew 20 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:37.319 a little bit about my background of having some adopted children and a little bit 21 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:40.879 of a biracial family, and so I had somebody on the team and say, 22 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:42.040 hey, you want to talk and look into St. Thomas. They've 23 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:46.560 done some good work in that and so I did that and we were introduced 24 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:49.640 to Katie and some other folks there, and so that's kind of where this 25 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.120 came from. And again, it's such a great a great tool that they 26 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.159 have. Katie is very passionate about it and she'll share that it's a great 27 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.439 conversation and uh, and I think that we all have room to learn about 28 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:05.040 each other and this is a great way to start that. Thank you, 29 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:09.800 Bart. Here's our conversation with Katie. It's our pleasure to welcome Katie Jensen, 30 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:16.080 who's the associated vice president of Insights and Analytics for Marketing Insights and Communications 31 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:22.319 at the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota to the podcast, and we're 32 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:28.240 going to be talking to her about the high level and very public work that 33 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:32.919 her, her team and the college has been doing around diversity, equity and 34 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:37.360 inclusion. But first, Katie, if you would tell us a little bit 35 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:43.960 about the university. Absolutely, thanks for having me try and bart um so. 36 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:47.360 St. Thomas is the largest private university in Minnesota. We're located in 37 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:52.000 the twin cities of St. Paul and Minneapolis. We have about nine thousand 38 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:58.120 students total, six thousand or so an undergrad and about three thousand graduate students 39 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:04.159 UM. We are among the top twenty national Catholic universities, and we're best 40 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:10.199 known for our programs in business, particularly entrepreneurship and engineering. We've also recently 41 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:15.919 launched a College of Health with a brand new School of Nursing UM and are 42 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:23.840 the first uh UH university ever to move directly from Division three to Division one. 43 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.800 In athletics, it's a pretty fun time to be a tummy. Thanks 44 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.199 for sharing that, Katie, and and I guess we wanted to talk a 45 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:31.719 little bit about as as Troy kind of set it up with the the d 46 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:35.639 E I work that you guys have all done, but you've become very intentional 47 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:37.840 on that work. I think a lot of schools will say, yeah, 48 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:39.599 we we kind of keep that in mind, but you've actually created what you 49 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:44.680 call a d EI viewfinder. Tell us a little bit about that. So 50 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:50.680 the d e I Viewfinder is all about helping our team create more inclusive content. 51 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.560 And so the d e I stands for diversity, equity and inclusion and 52 00:03:54.800 --> 00:04:00.879 it's a tool UM that we've actually spread across the university and across our team 53 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:05.199 to help people ask the critical questions to make sure their work is as inclusive 54 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:11.680 as possible. So the viewfinder includes nine questions, and these are questions that 55 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:15.639 anyone kind of anywhere you are on your d e I journey, whether you're 56 00:04:15.040 --> 00:04:20.000 experienced in those concepts or not, UM can really start to think critically and 57 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:26.199 have good conversations about d e I as it relates to our work. So 58 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.399 for us, you know, we, like a lot of universities, have 59 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:34.120 a goal of expanding our audiences, opening doors to UM you know, marginalized 60 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:41.720 communities, underrepresented communities UM that haven't always had access to higher education. And 61 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:46.399 so it's really important from a marketing and communications perspective, where often the first 62 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:53.519 introduction they have to St. Thomas UM to make sure that we're making UM 63 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:58.560 everything accessible, whether that's the process for applying or understanding what it's going to 64 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:01.600 be like to be a student here. UM. Just making sure that we're 65 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:06.920 throwing those doors wide open and really helping people see themselves here. That's great. 66 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.720 And I I UM, I know that it's publicly available. I actually 67 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:15.279 signed up for it, and I've I'm working my way through the viewfinder myself, 68 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:19.839 and I've just been fascinated by and I'm so grateful for it because I 69 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:24.680 think that this is something that all colleges and universities should do, and I 70 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:27.839 particularly, I mean I've I've got a little bit of a soft spot in 71 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.240 my heart for faith based that's kind of where I came out of, much 72 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.120 like what St. Thomas is and and I think it's just a it's a 73 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.360 responsibility for all of us to do that and to and to recognize that. 74 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:40.720 So help me understand from the university standpoint, what are some of the desired 75 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.720 outcomes for those who are going through it, whether it's on campus or even 76 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:48.240 somebody like myself who's outside. That's just trying to be better informed. What 77 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:54.399 we're really trying to do with this tool is spread the responsibility for d e 78 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:59.079 I conversations to more of the team. We were finding that it was often, 79 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.600 you know, our colleagues from marginalized communities who are having to speak up 80 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:05.439 and say, hey, you know, I think this is sending a message 81 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:10.120 you didn't intend. You might want to work on this piece a little more 82 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:14.680 from an inclusion standpoint. And UM, you know, when when we set 83 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.319 out to create this, my colleague Becky Stenlin and I were the ones who 84 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:23.079 did the research and created this tool, were two white, CIS gendered straight 85 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:28.759 women, UM, and you know, wanting to make an impact UM, 86 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:33.040 and wanting to take some of that UM work on ourselves and provide our other 87 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:40.240 teammates with UM with the tools to help UM. And so really, you 88 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:46.279 know, our outcome is to make UM d e I work and keeping an 89 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.279 eye on the inclusivity of our work more than just a few people on the 90 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:54.439 team's job. It's everybody's job. It's actually not a step in our content 91 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.680 creation process. It's something that should and could be applied at every step of 92 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:02.480 the process from developed, meant to review, publishing. It's really kind of 93 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:09.319 democratizing the power that inclusivity piece can have. That's great, and I kind 94 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:11.639 of alluded to the fact that, I mean, this kind of fits naturally 95 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:15.720 out of the convictions that you have as a as a Catholic institution, which 96 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.439 I applaud in that. I'm curious, how did this kind of come about? 97 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.279 I mean, certainly this is something like this seems to have to come 98 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:25.759 from the top down priorities that the way it happened, I would say some 99 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.759 top down in some bottom up. The one of the big things for us 100 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.560 has been d e I as a priority from the President to the CMO, 101 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:39.360 you know, making room for it in our jobs and really being clear with 102 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:43.839 us that, you know, being on a d e I journey developing cultural 103 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:48.120 competency is part of the job that we have here. Um, it's part 104 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:51.360 of the skill set we need. So there's that piece, and then the 105 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:58.160 other piece is just wanting to get feedback and opening ourselves up to feedback from 106 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.680 other parts of the university. The way we developed the tool was actually partnering 107 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:07.800 with another group on campus called the Seeking Educational Equity and Diversity or SEED team, 108 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:13.160 and this cohort Um that we worked with. We gave them a bunch 109 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:16.360 of our materials and we said, mark it up. Tell us what we 110 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.600 didn't get right. Feel free to point out where we got it right. 111 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.639 UM, that's will take those two. But you know, wherever you can 112 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:28.000 show us somewhere that we could have done better, that's what we can learn 113 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:31.159 from. And so I say bottoms up, because it really was just our 114 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:35.919 peers taking a look and and doing us the favor of giving us the feedback 115 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.399 UM, and that's where we were able to develop the questions from with a 116 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.559 project like this. And I love the sincerity and where all of this came 117 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.559 from and how you set out to do it. However, I would like 118 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:56.600 to hear some of the other reactions or you know, I would guess that 119 00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:01.600 maybe not all of the responces that you got from the community were positive. 120 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.919 Yeah, yeah, I mean the vast majority of the response has been positive. 121 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:13.039 You know, we've trained UM nearly four hundred people in the tool internally 122 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:18.159 and externally. The most common feedback we get is that it's really practical, 123 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:24.480 a really approachable way to take action on d e I concepts. But we 124 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:28.840 do get the occasional person who isn't sure that you know this fits with our 125 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:33.759 Catholic foundation or um. We got feedback once somebody said this is just woke 126 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:39.759 nonsense. My feeling is this is absolutely aligned to our Catholic foundations and to 127 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:43.759 our convictions. We have a conviction around diversity, we also have a conviction 128 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:48.360 around the dignity of all people. And for me, it's the difference between 129 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:54.200 topics that have our political and have been politicized, right, and so I 130 00:09:54.240 --> 00:10:00.759 think all people of good will can agree that making sure that re student can 131 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.919 find a sense of belonging when they go to college, that they can feel 132 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.639 welcome in a place that can help them further their lives. When you take 133 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.039 it to that human level, of course, everybody agrees right that that's the 134 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:16.080 right thing to do. And so it's just reminding them about the humans at 135 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:18.720 the center of it. That's not political, that's just caring for your fellow 136 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:24.000 human. And I really can't think of anything, you know, more Catholic 137 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.600 than that. We will be right back after a word from our sponsor. 138 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.200 Today's podcast is brought to you by Spoke. Note the simple way to add 139 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.840 video to anything. If you're looking for an innovative, effective way to get 140 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.440 someone's attention, you really ought to check out spoke Note. They make these 141 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.759 easy to use QR code stickers that allow you to record and share personalized videos 142 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:52.600 with anybody. We're seeing Spokenoe stickers used on campuses in some really interesting ways, 143 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.879 such as outreach to prospective students, maybe through acceptance letters, welcome messages 144 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:03.759 from student ambassadors during the campus visiting orientation, student life applications like placing about 145 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.480 me videos outside of dorm room, even personalized fundraising appeals from the development office, 146 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:13.000 and athletic recruiting videos from coaches. The applications for spoke Note in and 147 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:16.919 out of education are really endless. Try them out today by placing an order 148 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:24.600 at spoke notte dot com. Welcome back, Let's rejoin the conversation right here 149 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.879 on the higher ed marketer. Like you said, it's it's too easy sometimes 150 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.000 to just you know, not think about it and just you know, take 151 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.799 a take a politicized line. Um, it's too easy to do that sometimes, 152 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:41.120 And I really appreciate the intentional intentionality that you all have done to really 153 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:43.519 kind of look at it that way and and actually defend it that way. 154 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:46.559 I mean, I agree with you. I think it's a it's a big 155 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.559 part of person of faith, understanding and really living out you know, what 156 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:52.720 they believe in that sense. And I applaud you guys for doing that. 157 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.960 So that's that's pretty exciting to see that, and I and I'm really glad 158 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.840 to to hear how much people have embraced that that that amount of you know, 159 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.360 the amount of that you know, pushback that you've gotten maybe a little 160 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.200 bit smaller, because I think that as we as we look at how to 161 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:13.559 embrace uh cultural differences, especially when we think about, you know, the 162 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.519 shifting demographics, the way that you know, statistics show us that a lot 163 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.480 more of the future generations of college students are going to be you know, 164 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:22.840 some of us are going to be in the minorities that have never been in 165 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:24.519 the minority. And that's just the way it is. And that's and I 166 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.399 think that the more that we all understand that, the better that's going to 167 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.720 be. So perfect. Yeah, I would just you know, add to 168 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.960 that, there are certainly times where we go, gosh, are we being 169 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.879 too sensitive? Like are we are we just really picking this thing apart? 170 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:43.360 And I always say, you know, that's that's the point. That's the 171 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.039 idea here is to be super critical, as critical as you can, UM, 172 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:52.159 and then we have a conversation about it. It doesn't mean that everything 173 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:56.080 that you that we talk about, that we highlight to each other is something 174 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.759 we have to change. UM. It just means that it's something that we 175 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:03.360 to talk about. And and some of it is just normalizing the conversation UM, 176 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:09.200 and then also practicing those conversations so that you're delivering the message back to 177 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.200 the creators of the content, who gosh, I couldn't do their work and 178 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.919 have someone tell me my my work is, you know, not good enough. 179 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.080 Every day. They're so resilient, UM. But when we go to 180 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.519 them, it's not oh, this you know, this brochure is so racist. 181 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:28.840 It's hey, I think this brochure is sending a message that you didn't 182 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.519 intend. Or I think we could make this brochure a little more inclusive, 183 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.440 and here are the ways that we can do it. And when you can 184 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:41.039 turn it from UM from a personal UM, you didn't do a good job 185 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:43.320 point of view too, Uh, I think we could work together to make 186 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:48.559 this better. UM. You're gonna find a lot less UM resistance to those 187 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:54.799 ideas. So it sounds like that it's changed the way that your marketing team 188 00:13:54.799 --> 00:14:01.759 approaches projects and approaches the creation. Can you dig a little deeper, take 189 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.279 us a little deeper into how it's changed the way you approach it as a 190 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.919 team. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like I said before, we 191 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:13.080 haven't made um the viewfinder a step in the process. At first, we 192 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:16.759 were a little tempted to say, Okay, there's gonna be a d E 193 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.399 I review step, um, But then we realize there isn't really a perfect 194 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.480 time in the process to look at it that way, and UM, we 195 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:30.039 really wanted to empower the whole team to have a chance to to leverage the 196 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:33.840 tool. And in fact, when we hire freelancers to help us with you 197 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:37.879 know, writing or our direction, UM, where our team is that capacity, 198 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.519 we give them the viewfinder. And that's part of the briefing process. 199 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.080 UM. So you know, when you brief creatives, this is all about 200 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:50.879 giving them clear objectives and expectations that you are going to evaluate their work on, 201 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:54.919 right, Like, that's core to the creative development process. UM. 202 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:00.440 And so we're putting the viewfinder right next to the key messages and the audience. 203 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:03.480 It needs to appeal to in terms of how we're going to evaluate that 204 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:07.919 work. UM. So that's part of it. And then UM, you 205 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.799 know, I would I would just say again making sure that UM, you're 206 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:18.399 well, maybe not again will introduce the idea of UM. You know, 207 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.919 it takes more edits sometimes UM, you know, and we think that, 208 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:28.399 you know, from what we've seen, it's worth the UM, it's worth 209 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.320 the effort. We tend to find that when projects go through this process, 210 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.320 they're not just more inclusive, they're actually higher quality work. UM. I'll 211 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.120 give you an example. We had one UM in our Opus College of Business. 212 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:48.720 We had this brand awareness campaign where we were featuring our alumni as giants 213 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:52.840 of industry and you know, very successful, and so the imagery had them 214 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:58.840 kind of towering over buildings and key landmarks within the Twin cities. We had 215 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:03.639 some differences and how different people were being shown. So there were if you 216 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.440 put two of the ads side by side, there was a white man who 217 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.919 was standing, you know, confidently in the middle of the landscape, and 218 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.279 then you had a black man who was peeking around the corner of a building. 219 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:21.879 Both interesting and engaging ways to visualize this idea of giants in our alumni. 220 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:23.679 But when you put them together, what does that say about the you 221 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:27.039 know, the white man is taking up space whereas the black man sort of 222 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:30.919 tentatively peeking. That's not a message we want to send about, you know, 223 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:36.840 how those folks should enter their workspace. Um. And so we made 224 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:41.639 a revision based on that, and when we revised that ad and had the 225 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:45.519 new one actually had the black man standing strong in in the middle of the 226 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:49.799 landscape, and it was the number one or I'm sorry, top ten ad 227 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:55.759 on LinkedIn UM in Education that following week. So it just shows it's not 228 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.480 just about making it more accessible to people who we want to be able to 229 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:03.840 see them selves here. It was a stronger ad just overall. So I 230 00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:07.920 always encourage people to think about the upside that they'll have. UM. Yes, 231 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.079 it will. It will take longer, UM, it will take maybe 232 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:15.160 more rounds of revisions, but it's totally worth it. Bart, I know. 233 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:19.359 And as you mentioned earlier, you also take d e I very seriously, 234 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:23.720 and I have done work with schools that you have consulted for in the 235 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:27.200 past. Can you give us some examples of some of the work that you've 236 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:32.039 done. Yeah, it's it's interesting I've got a little bit of a perspective 237 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:33.680 on that. And and Troy you know this. I'm not sure that all 238 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.119 of our audience does. But you know, out of the four children that 239 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.000 I have, two of them are adopted, UM. The two our siblings 240 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.799 from Ethiopia, and we adopted them when they were quite young, and so 241 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:45.480 UM, you know, we grew up in a family, you know, 242 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:49.920 for the last you know, sixteen seventeen years of of kind of a you 243 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:53.920 know, white mom and dad, you know, white biological children and then 244 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:59.519 to UM African children as well. And so just kind of navigating that has 245 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.680 has open my eyes to some of the sensitivities of d E I and and 246 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:06.640 I've i've I've used that in some of the ways that I try to approach 247 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:08.160 the marketing UM. And you know, Troy, you and I've talked many 248 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.000 times just personally about some different things that have been extremely helpful for me to 249 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.599 just understand a little bit more of a perspective that I don't have, UM, 250 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:21.119 even though I have a greater perspective than maybe some other UM white fathers 251 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.200 might have. But UM, I do think that I bring that to the 252 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.799 table. And and I think so many times that schools want to just approach 253 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.759 this from a from a marketing or kind of a band aid perspective. It's 254 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:33.359 like, hey, we're gonna do that. Yeah, we'll be a little 255 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:37.440 bit more sensitive to that. But at the end of the day, when 256 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.440 you look at their directory and you stand back and you look at the school, 257 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.119 and you're like, well, yeah, you're saying a lot of things, 258 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:45.839 and yeah, you're doing the count on the amount of students that are 259 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.000 in the brochure and making sure that you know, the students show up on 260 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.559 the website. But when I look at your faculty, I'm still only seeing 261 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:59.079 you know, white faculty, or I'm seeing of this or a percent white 262 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.680 administration. And so I think so many times it's so important that if if 263 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:06.359 we're really going to lean into this, that that's it's a it's a commitment 264 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:10.359 that goes beyond just marketing. It's a commitment that goes into the authenticity of 265 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:14.000 the university and how you're actually living that out. And so I guess part 266 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:17.920 of the questions that I'd like to take it to Katie is just as St. 267 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.960 Thomas has kind of you know, done this d I Viewfinder, how 268 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.200 has that influenced the rest of the campus in the sense of, you know, 269 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:29.160 even just your hiring practices. Yeah, we've actually done a lot of 270 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.000 work within the Marketing, Insights and Communications team on inclusive hiring. Um. 271 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:37.799 Just like we're working hard to make sure we're inviting students into our community and 272 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.240 inclusive way, we're trying to do the same with our colleagues as well. 273 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.240 So we took a close look at our hiring practices. We actually partnered with 274 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:51.839 a consulting firm called Team Dynamics. They're a local women and LGBT owned business 275 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.519 here in the Twin Cities, and we asked them to audit our process and 276 00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:00.920 so we made a lot of changes. Some things just really bull just make 277 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:06.720 the process more accessible and really limit the bias that can creep into the process. 278 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:10.839 So one example is cover letters. The purpose of the cover letter wasn't 279 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.160 clear. We were in some cases using it as an example of a writing 280 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.599 sample, a first writing sample for us to look at, but we weren't 281 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:23.759 telling them that. So some applicants who maybe didn't have the guidance or the 282 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:27.079 experience to know that, hey, when you write a cover letter, this 283 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:32.359 is how it might be used we're getting screened out because we thought maybe they 284 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.119 didn't take it. We were jumping to conclusions. Maybe they weren't taking it 285 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.640 seriously, maybe they weren't interested in the job, maybe they didn't have good 286 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.440 writing skills. Now we're saying, okay, if we need a writing sample, 287 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:47.519 if that's part of the criteria for doing this job, we're going to 288 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:49.720 ask for a writing sample and tell them how we're going to evaluate it, 289 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:56.319 as opposed to taking some random piece of the application and considering it in a 290 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:00.559 way that they never knew we would. So we think about it as really 291 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:06.680 making the invisible visible, and you know, we look for the opportunities to 292 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:11.640 do that throughout the process. We've also worked on things with HR to improve 293 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.519 the approach for the entire university. So, for example, on the application, 294 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.960 we asked for gender, and mail was listed first. That's not even 295 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.440 alphabetical order, um, and so we asked ourselves, you know what message 296 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.240 does that send a female or non binary candidates? So that's been changed to 297 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:36.960 alphabetical phrase that really resonates with me in hiring and actually inclusivity in general is 298 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:42.359 if you're if you're not intentionally including people, you are unintentionally excluding them, 299 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.559 UM, and so really thinking about you have to be intentional every step of 300 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.160 the way, from the way you write the job description to where you post 301 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:57.799 the information that the opportunity, to how you do the interviews, every step 302 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:03.920 of the process. UM has to be really intentional about how you're including people. 303 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:07.799 That's great and I I have to I was recalling here while we were 304 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.480 talking UM. The way I was introduced to St. Thomas is that I 305 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.640 had a project that I did recently for a d E I review of some 306 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.079 marketing materials for a college university, and Troy actually assisted on that project with 307 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:22.680 me. UM. I remember somebody on the team said, oh, you 308 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.640 know what I've heard. St. Thomas has this amazing tool. We should 309 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:30.680 check into them, and that led to our conversation for UM for for the 310 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.359 podcast, and so I'm grateful for that. I know that not only is 311 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.559 the viewfinder available public and we'll have links to that in the show notes, 312 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.799 but I also know that you recently had a talk that you gave at the 313 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:45.039 m A Symposium for Higher Education. Tell us a little bit about what that 314 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:48.359 was all about. Yeah, So, UM, we were excited to be 315 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:55.359 invited back again this year to present at that symposium, um so we UM. 316 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:59.119 Last year we presented the d e I Viewfinder. This year we're talking 317 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:04.319 about this inclusive hiring process so UM it was a presentation on UM ten Steps 318 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:10.640 for Inclusive Hiring um SO really giving people again going back to that idea of 319 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:17.200 how do we make d e I and inclusivity really actionable and accessible for anybody 320 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:19.680 who's doing the jobs that we're doing. UM. We didn't actually wait for 321 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.640 HR to lead the way on inclusive hiring. We said, how are we 322 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.759 going to do it for our team? And then we pushed a lot of 323 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.640 our learning to the university and they're they're using a lot of the things that 324 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:33.640 that we've been doing as well. All of our search committees at St. 325 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:40.640 Thomas get a briefing UM from the learnings that we had UM to ensure that 326 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:45.160 their hiring processes are inclusive and as free of biases as you can make them 327 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.480 when there are still humans involved. UM. SO we're excited to share share 328 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:55.119 our learnings UM to have shared our learnings that am I recently. That's so 329 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:56.880 cool. You just made a comment that made me think about the fact that 330 00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:00.240 you know as as much as you possibly can with hum is involved. I'm 331 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:04.079 sure that you don't always get it right. I'm sure that there's always opportunities 332 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:08.599 for for more improvement. I mean, it's a journey, it's a marathon. 333 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.119 I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing, and I'm guessing you're 334 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.480 probably seeing that showing up in in the results. I mean, isn't it 335 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:21.319 true that one of your most diverse classes just enrolled? That's right, we 336 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:25.839 just enrolled our most diverse class of first time first year students ever at St. 337 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:30.400 Thomas. Also the highest number of first generation students we've ever had, 338 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:34.279 and that's that's the efforts of our marketing team as well as a ton of 339 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:40.079 other people on campus. UM, but really exciting to see, um see 340 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:42.920 those numbers come through. And you know, so much of the way students 341 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:48.160 find out about us is through word of mouth, and we haven't been present 342 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.359 in the mouths of many of the communities in town, and so it's really 343 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.480 exciting for those students to come and have a great St. Thomas experience and 344 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:02.519 hopefully report back to their friends and family about what are great places. Well, 345 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:06.720 congratulations on that. Before we kind of finish up here on Troy has 346 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:08.200 a couple of additional questions. I did want to say though, I had 347 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:12.039 made a reference to the fact that we'll put the doew finder link in the 348 00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:15.400 show notes. But before we leave, just tell me a little bit about 349 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.119 what they'll find if they click on that link and what what all is involved. 350 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:26.519 Yeah, so it's we actually created a synchronous online Continuing in Professional Education 351 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:29.680 course UM where people can get the full training on the d e I view 352 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.920 finder. So it includes our nine questions UM and actually real examples I think 353 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:38.880 more than thirty real examples of where you can see and learn from our mistakes 354 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.839 where we most of where we didn't get it wrong. There are a couple 355 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.240 of where we got it rights in there. And so yeah, people can 356 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.599 register for that class and they can always feel free to reach out to me 357 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.960 for more information as well. I can leave my contact information. Great, 358 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:55.799 and for larger marketing teams, I understand you have some group discounts for that 359 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:57.440 as well. Yeah, yep, so we can work with them if if 360 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.680 there's a bigger group wanting to take it, we can do some group discounts 361 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:06.480 as well. Perfect. Thank you for our last question. I would like 362 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:08.960 to ask you if there would be a tip or a piece of advice that 363 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:14.839 you could give that someone can implement immediately around this copic, what would that 364 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:18.559 piece of advice be. Yeah, that's easy for me. It's to open 365 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:25.839 yourself up to feedback and actively solicit that feedback from other people that you work 366 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:30.440 with. Find some people who you know come from a different perspective than you 367 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:34.160 have come from people you know, talk to people who have spent time engaging 368 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:40.240 in these topics. Particularly in higher ed. We've got so many wonderful scholars 369 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:44.039 and their knowledge to draw from. And I'm no scholar on this stuff. 370 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.799 I'm just a practitioner. But I've learned so much from from those colleagues and 371 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.119 it's really helped us not just learn, but build relationships so that when we 372 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.480 do have a miss step, we're hearing it straight from the person who saw 373 00:26:56.519 --> 00:26:59.240 it, and hopefully as soon as they saw it, so we can make 374 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:03.319 it right then. With that, also want to underscore how important it is 375 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.920 for that feedback not to just come on the backs of our colleagues from underrepresented 376 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:14.920 or marginalized groups. They have representation fatigue, and so be cognizant of constantly 377 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:19.200 asking those people to to share from from their perspective and go above and beyond 378 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:25.200 to weigh in. That's a lot of what we're trying to do with this 379 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:29.880 tool is again spread that work to more people, enable more people to do 380 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.720 it, and we've just had so many great conversations as a result. So 381 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.960 definitely recommend just open yourself up, be humble, be willing to learn, 382 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:41.359 and it'll be really rewarding. Thank you very much, Katie for being a 383 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.799 guest on the podcast. You mentioned that someone could reach out to you. 384 00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.559 Can you give us the best way for someone to reach you. Yeah, 385 00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:55.880 absolutely, reach out via email a d dot Jensen at St Thomas dot edu. 386 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.759 So that's St. Thomas dot d u. UM. You could also 387 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:03.000 find me on LinkedIn. Either one works. Katie, Again, thank you 388 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:10.000 very much for sharing all the wonderful wisdom and information that you have and we 389 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:15.400 feel that you're sharing today will be an inspiration for others. Bart. Is 390 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:19.799 there are there any closing comments that you have? Yeah, yeah, just 391 00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:22.279 a few. I mean I made some comments there in the middle that that 392 00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:25.480 kind of stand on their own, But again, I just kind of keep 393 00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:27.559 going back to the fact that, um, this is just the right thing 394 00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.480 to do. I really appreciate what Katie said about the fact that so many 395 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:36.000 times this gets politicized and turned into something political rather than just it's the right 396 00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:40.000 thing to do everybody. I mean, it comes down to relationships and respect. 397 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:41.160 You know, you don't want me to get on my soapbox right now, 398 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:47.200 but it is all about relationships and uh. And I think that once 399 00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:49.759 you can get past that, and as Katie said, open yourself up to 400 00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:53.599 you know, just receiving some criticism and things you might just not be aware 401 00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:56.680 of. I mean, there's a lot of natividay around the idea that you 402 00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.400 know, I don't know what I don't know, and and a lot of 403 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.480 people are just in that in that case or whatever side it is. And 404 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.440 so just being open and humble, I think is the way to go. 405 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:10.440 And I appreciate the tools that st Thomas has put together. So again, 406 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:11.640 thank you, Katie. It's been wonderful to have you on the show. 407 00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:18.599 Thanks for having me appreciate it. The Hired Marketer podcast is sponsored by Kaylor 408 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:25.880 Solutions and Education marketing and branding agency and by Ring Digital, a marketing firm 409 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:30.680 that specializes in boosting lifting yield for higher ed with unique, targeted and accurate 410 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.400 digital marketing campaigns on behalf of my co host Bark Kaylor. I'm Troye Singer. 411 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:41.359 Thank you for joining us. You've been listening to the Higher ed Marketer. 412 00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:45.359 To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in 413 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:51.359 your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with Apple Podcasts, we'd love for 414 00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:53.759 you to leave a quick rating of the show. Simply tap the number of 415 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:57.039 stars do you think the podcast deserves. Until next time,